London Riots

[Luke Rainbird]

So apparently there's gonna be a riot in London tomorrow, eh lads?

[Ali C]

I heard about a biker gang full of yoofs were going to cause trouble

[Hannah Shucksmith]

Just received word of a riot starting in Winchester tonight. Several police cars have just driven by. I live on the highstreet... Joy!

[mat hudson]

Petition for convicted rioters to lose benifits

This is very dread () whilst i dont support the actions of deluded youths i also defo dont support the knee jerk reaction of equally deluded plebs like the DICKHEAD Stephen Mains who started this petition. To create a pecedent of cutting support for people who protest is a dangerous thing and could make things very precarious for protesters with legitimate gripes (and there are many!) in the future, cant these simpletons see this is all a mechanism for futher lockdown on our freedoms as a society?

[casualjoe]

Well yea, also you take their benefits away and how are they gonna eat? By robbing stuff which will obviously increase crime and cost the country more money.

[MonsieurMonkey]

But they're cutting people's benefits for rioting and looting. Not for protesting.

And if you take their house and benefits away, they end up homeless. And die. Seems pretty win win.

[mat hudson]

its a fine line though, one i see getting blurred.

the riot/protest thing. not so much the looting.

Edited August 13, 2011 by mat hudson

[MonsieurMonkey]

I agree, but I don't think the Government could get away with cutting genuine protesters benefits. I know I wouldn't stand for it, but if you want to burn and rob other people's stuff, then I'd be quite happy for them to get the death penalty. I despise the thought of working for things then someone else just coming taking them, even more so when my taxes pay for everything else in their lives. (Not my taxes at this very moment, but you get my drift.)

[Shaun H]

Unless I'm misunderstanding it, the response to the e-petition by the government seems to suggest that in the event of someone being prosecuted for a crime that leads to a prison sentence, they have their benefits revoked anyway?

[Revolver]

Yeah, but you get fed and a bed in prison.

Really, we need c**ts to be afraid of the law. Whether that's cause they've got rubber bullets, real bullets, your benefits go, or whatever.

It's become cool to be a dickhead.

[PaRtZ]

its a fine line though, one i see getting blurred.

the riot/protest thing. not so much the looting.

Youre right slim, people who protest REALLY shouldn't lose rights. But this petition is only against those convicted, ie joe bloggs caught on camera/has evidence of criminal damage/murder etc. gets sentenced THEN loses house. Thats fair IMO. People who were out on the streets IN the riot, but actually didn't do anything (if that actually happened anywhere) won't/shouldn't lose their house.

[Matt Vandart]

'an explanation for the way things are that does not threaten the way things are. Why should someone feel unhappy or engage in antisocial behaviour when that person is living in (one of) the freest and most prosperous nations on earth? It cant be the system! there must be a flaw in the wiring somewhere.

Its a cop out that which allows us to ignore the social, economic factors that in fact underlay many troublesome behaviours.'

I think this may apply here.

[MonsieurMonkey]

Rewrite that so it makes more sense. Or compress it down into a sentence. It's hypocritical and everything.

[Matt Vandart]

Well maybe you should ask the extremely respected professor guy who wrote it to do that.

A prominent American writer and academic according to Wikipedia

Lois Menand

Edited August 13, 2011 by Matt Vandart

[MonsieurMonkey]

The extremely well respected Professor who has worse grammar than me? Who said it/wrote it?

That's beyond the point anyway, if you are saying you think it may apply. Then you must understand it fully, so explain it to me. I can't understand how someone can say in one sentence that it must be in the wiring (this would generally mean within a singular person, how they are wired) and then say it's socioeconomic factors. Weird how this prominent "Professor of Wikipedia" doesn't know the word socioeconomic either.

Edited August 13, 2011 by MonsieurMonkey

[Matt Vandart]

He's in the link I put in the post fella.

It's a pisstake of the mentality that comes up with comments like:

'Scumbags and chavs just doing it to steal a tv'

'It's their parents!'

'Send em to jail' 'make them clean it up' 'Get out the army?????????' (oh that would be a good idea)

Punnish them! Punnish them! Punnish them! They know they will get away with it!.

Anyone that doesn't think this shit is to do with the way our society and more importantly our economy but rather is just because they are chavs and scumbags, is adding to the very problem that has caused this to happen.

Media, ontroled by the moneymen in order to sell more shit that people don't really need (and the need for some of the marketplace to not be able to ever have that 'stuff' in order to make this stuff 'valuable') has absolutely and directly caused this problem.

Excuses are being made to fix the real problem so there is a hype about the need for punishment.

All these people smashed up some shit and steal some shit and burn some shit, compared to what the company executives of petrochemical, clothing industry, car industry are doing to the planet they have done f**k all, yet NO-ONE is braying for their heads, rather they are being rewarded.

Rewarded very well.

What about the banker wankers that supposedly caused the economic problems (as if they did) why are they not in court? There was nowhere near the outcry there is about this rioting.

All this crying out that the problem is inherent WITHIN the Chav rather than the society that produced the chav is retarded and typical.

Hence:

an explanation for the way things are that does not threaten the way things are. Why should someone feel unhappy or engage in antisocial behaviour when that person is living in (one of) the freest and most prosperous nations on earth? It cant be the system! there must be a flaw in the wiring somewhere.'

And also:

'Its a cop out that which allows us to ignore the social, economic factors that in fact underlay many troublesome behaviours.'

Edited August 13, 2011 by Matt Vandart

[MonsieurMonkey]

Chavs and scumbags are created by society. A small, but growing, part of society, it's called the Underclass. They account for over 80% of crime. I get why people are getting fed up of it. I'm not going to write an essay on it, but I covered some aspects of it a few pages back.

I assume you're trying to say this is our commercialist societies fault. Well I'll partly agree with that, in the sense that people who have seen their parents live on handouts their entire lives and grow up aspiring to the same feel they should get everything for free. When they can't afford to get the newest things that they want then they want to take them. But you can't blame commercialism because it's only making one group rob, I'm not going out robbing things even though I want stuff. I'm a student, and this year just gone I went for about a month of being in an incredibly bad way money wise, 2 meals a day, only drinking water, and coffee was my dessert every night. (Uni halls are robbing bastards) But I didn't go out stealing things, even though I wanted food, not a new pair of sick Nikez blud.

Those executives make huge amounts of money, but they also provide a service, whatever it may be, they actually bring us something. And to get any further in technology we have to f**k up our planet, we need to see what we can do. We need to burn fossil fuels right now to power our planet so we can continue researching greener technology. Or should we try and do it with no power, because that'd be the greenest way to do it. Smashing up your own city and costing money and suffering for absolutely no benefit isn't comparable.

The bankers aren't a comparison either, when we were booming no-one seemed to complain about them, in a way what caused the economic recession was allowing more people to own their own home. It wasn't the best idea, and yes it was because of greed, but it still allowed people to own their own home who wouldn't have been able to otherwise, some of whom I'm sure didn't default on their mortgage.

These people did do it either for the fun of it, or to get free things. There's nothing more to it. Yes it is partly societies fault, for allowing our country to harbour this problem for so long without doing anything about it. But that doesn't mean their behaviour is excused, they are still directly to blame.

I suppose I'll go into the real depth of the problem in this country, we have always had a hugely left wing past. This has meant that we have looked after those who needed looking after in their times of need. If you couldn't find a job, then society would look after you and make sure you weren't left out in the cold until you found another. If you have a long term illness that stops you from working, then you were also looked after. The problem with this is, some people see this as an opportunity to take advantage, and if you're brought up with parents who think it's okay to live off the rest of society, chances are you will too. When you factor in, the more kids you have the more money you get, this problem starts to grow exponentially. We have a generation of kids who just don't see the value of work because in their lifetime they have never seen their parents working. They learn how to work the system, because it's not exactly hard to do it.

I'm not saying benefit fraud costs us a massive amount of money, it doesn't. Tax evasion costs us massive massive amounts more. But it's the kind of person it creates. It creates a sponging, unmotivated, greedy society. I never expect to be given anything, I expect to have to work for it in some way. But these people are just expecting life to hand them everything on a platter. They see a chance to take more, then they will.

I understand what you're saying, that socioeconomic factors have created these people, but the same factors haven't turned every single one of us into them. It's a minority that it has affected in that way. Why haven't we all gone looting and all signed on? We've seen them do it for a long time now and prosper, so why don't we just all f**k off our jobs, get a free house and get the Government to give us some money?

Sorry for the length of this, there is no TLDR.

Edited August 13, 2011 by MonsieurMonkey

[Matt Vandart]

I concur with everything you are saying.

My problem is with the 'Value' that is increasingly being appointed to 'things' rather than experiences.

Commercials on the tv are very powerful tools designed by people that have much better knowledge of the human mind and condition than both of us put together.

I was watching some kids show with my youngest kid a couple of years back when an ad came on for some shitty toy, as soon as the ad finished he was like 'I NEED that' not WANT but NEED.

The same method is used in ALL advertisement for 'stuff' and in fact lifestyles it is more subtle yes, but it is having an effect on us all.

The very poor know that they will the most likely in reality never have these things they 'NEED'.

You say you were very poor as a student, I am not disagreeing, were you very poor all your life before that? (this is a question, not a poke at you, I have no idea you could have come from a Somalian ghetto for all I know) if not this could be the very reason you don't go round stealing stuff you want (need).

Also the value of ones self has played a massive roll in this situation IMO.

At a guess, from your posts, you have a good to high feeling of self worth, I may be wrong again I don't know.

These 'Chavs' and 'Scumbags' are very aware of what everyone thinks of them, 'worthless scum' it's in the media all the time. Like a woman (or man) in an abusive relationship, if it is said to them enough they WILL start to believe it and as a result resent the abuser.

This world society needs to change, starting with the economic system that was doomed to failure from the start and predicted this outcome from the first. There is plenty of 'stuff' in the world, it needs to stop being funnelled to the few and be spread amongst the masses. The concept of ownership is really a big problem that should over time be eliminated, there is no REAL need for it any more.

I am very aware of the systems of power generation and how it cannot be magically changed from fossil fuels, that is my particular game. But there is no need for them to be so damaging to both the environment or people.

Most of this energy is wastefully channelled into these 'things' we 'need'.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Matt Vandart

[MonsieurMonkey]

I wouldn't go so far as saying they know more about the human mind or condition than both of us put together. Maybe in advertising, but not everything. But that's hardly relevant.

It's not that they're made to make us want something, it's that the newest and latest is constantly pushed in our face. So we look at what we have and think that ours is no longer as good. Even number plates make sure we know what year a car is, conspiracy????!?!?!?! That's a joke by the way. I was brought up to have a good understanding of the value of money. Wanting and needing is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Right now I need a new laptop, this one is seriously on it's last legs. But I wouldn't go and steal one, if it dies I'll use the University's computers until I can afford a new one. I think that the best thing to do is to teach kid's the value of money, understanding the value of money (However you choose to do this) is a huge factor in the whole want / need thing. If money actually means something, you'll put the things you need above the things you want. If you have no value of money due to being given it your entire life and never having to work for it then this line becomes blurred. (I'm not saying that's going on with your kid, but I'm assuming they're like <11 because you said toys, so you control all their money anyway pretty much)

Erm, I have gone through phases, as a family we don't have massive amounts of money, my mum and dad are separated and have been for a long time. I'm not going to get into my entire life history, but no we are definitely below average when it comes to income. But I have earned more than the average when I lived alone for a while, that gave me a different perspective of money and quite how worthless it and material possessions actually are in some situations.

I'm not sure what to say about self worth, I'm not even sure if I want to go into it. Basically no, I don't value myself, I never have I never will. Ever since I was a kid I haven't and I doubt that'll change. I don't see why that's relevant though, self worth is something that's taught. People don't think everyone who is on the dole is a scum bag, they think those that cause damage to our society in whatever way they choose are. So unless you feel you fit that stereotype then why would it lower your self worth? Don't you think that you're giving them an excuse there? "Oh they've not got much self worth, they deserve our pity." And as I said before, they make up the underclass, 80% of crime is committed by them. The stereotype they bring around is made by them.

I understand more than most that the areas that they grow up in and who they associate with affects this, but if a single mother has 5 children, and has her first at 17 and has no idea how to control them, then the kids don't have a chance. If you wanted to fix this problem, at it's root, no more than 1 child unless both parents are working and financially stable and even then the limit is 2. But this would take years to have any real affect and I'm sure human rights would have something to say.

Thing is, a lot of the people I went to school with fit these stereotypes. Some of them still do, most of them are now normalish, but the unemployment near me is ridiculous so it's hard. Some of us have excelled our background and are almost anomalies for our school, those of us that are either in or finished University averaging above a 2.1 really are a fraction of a percentage. This is my problem with a lot of these "esteemed" academics, they come from middle class or above backgrounds, they've never lived it. In the same way judges haven't. They didn't get the shit kicked out of them for being a "swot" on a weekly basis. This is what most people don't understand, the majority of them not only don't give a f**k about their own future, they think you shouldn't either. Imagine trying to fight against the allure of that. You have 2 choices, go with the crowd, live off benefits, or get battered by the majority and make something of yourself. (Little insight to my schooling and possibly why I have no self worth...)

I started rambling there, so yeah, I might have missed some things.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're a proper commy aren't you

On the energy thing, I feel we need to work with nuclear power. We have an ever expanding universe full of black holes we can fire the waste into if we really need to. I don't think energy plays as bigger part as you think, but again to each their own. The whole money thing is irrelevant, I feel the problem lies with education. If everyone was as educated as me, they'd understand that money ain't that special. I get more of a buzz from google sky maps than any game. You can see where f**king any planet is. That shit's amazing.

Edited August 13, 2011 by MonsieurMonkey

[Matt Vandart]

Excellent reply! Clearly you are a man that thinks alot.

My points as I am pretty tired atm:

1:If something needs advertising, you don't really NEED it.

2:The value of labour (money) is definitely a necessary thing to be instilled in a young human, lacking in these as you said, education is definitely the key. The problem with education is that it has been designed and is still tending towards creating robots, it is too inflexible in the years it needs to be more flexible (13-18). Many are now a lost cause but change is required to stop the perpetuation of this travesty.

3:I commend you for getting yourself out of the shithole, you should see yourself as something special, an exception to the rule, you not only escaped the poverty but rather the nightmare that the current social education system.

4:I am most definitely not a commie, communism has some good ideas but is not suitable for all human beings, if anything I tend towards the utopian ideal but am aware tis totally unrealistic. There is another way it just hasn't been found yet or maybe found but not accepted.

5:Energy is MASSIVELY relevant, it is relevant to EVERYTHING we do or experience.

6:Negative Self worth isn't taught as far as I am concerned it is learned from life experiences (which is sorta what you said above). If you are abused as a child you will have low self worth, it would be absurd to suggest a kiddy fiddler is 'teaching' a victim.

I would say Positive self worth is taught, problem is the TV is teaching kids more than their parents.

My 'answer' if you can call it that, is for society to recognise that this really is a problem with information distribution and more specifically our reliance on the TV for entertainment and hence learning. In the last few years it really has become ridiculous the morals and self worth that are spewed forth from tv and gaming entertainment.

Until the masses stop following the media chant and wake up to realise that the surface 'reason' for this behaviour is not purely because they are 'scum to be punished' but rather a 'product' of an economic system that favours and is controlled by the (very) few to make them more rich so they can collect more 'stuff' we will continue to see this with possibly (probably) more escalation.

Contrary to what many may believe, I have massive faith in the human race to get through this shit (the social,economic and energy problems) and one day some may well look back in disbelief at what we did to ourselves (or allow to be done?)

Edited August 14, 2011 by Matt Vandart

[MonsieurMonkey]

This is gonna be my last reply on this, because we're going round in circles like a pair of dancing queers.

1. Not really, sometimes you can be advertising so people know which product is best, where they can get the best price etc. I have no problem with advertisement, I never see something on TV then have to go out and buy it. Normally I'll go on the internet and see where I can get it the cheapest and see if there's anything better.

2. They don't want to learn, that's the problem, you're giving them more excuses. They don't see it as being necessary due to the benefits culture we live in.

3. Thanks, let's homo it up.

4. Your views are definitely more Commie than most peoples.

5. I don't see how, you're blaming a social problem we've had for a long time on energy? If we had no energy, these people would be killed, as they would be a complete waste of resources.

6. Technically you learn from anything, so that kiddy fiddler is teaching. Your life experiences would have taught you that you're not worth anything.

On your answer, I got my first games console at the age of 4, I played games obsessively until I was about 18/19 and I mean a few solid hours a day. Again those who say that games are the cause of anything like this are just plain wrong, there is something inherently wrong with a person if what you see in a game makes you want to recreate it in real life.

Thread unhijacked, back to the riots.

[Matt Vandart]

Whatever you say boss.

How was the topic hijacked?

The topic is 'London Riots'

Is it because I came off the subject of revenge and what terrible punishment these dudes should get?

Hahahahhahahaha

Edited August 14, 2011 by Matt Vandart

[bikeperson45]

Woah, the looting's got really bad - link

[Matt Vandart]

Scumbag.

[MonsieurMonkey]

Like I said we were going round in circles. You have different opinions to me, it's not like one of us is going to change the other's mind. I just couldn't be bothered typing out essay after essay. We had hijacked the thread in the sense it was a conversation between me and you.

I was more than happy to come off the topic of just punishment and discuss the reasons and theory behind it all. But we both have different levels of understanding in the field so it's hard to discuss it in this back and forth way.

Edited August 15, 2011 by MonsieurMonkey