Crazy Drummer Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 A couple of questions: - What's peoples views on water bled Magura brakes? - I have Magura HS33's with Echo TR levers, I have heard that the Echo cylinders leak when bled with water and the HS33 are fine, are the Echo levers fine when bled with water? - Lots of people say putting Anti-Freeze in with the water is a good idea, what ratio of water to anti-freeze should I use and what affect does anti-freeze and water have on the brake seals and inside components. - What's the difference between using water compared to the Magura Royal Blue fluid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlperkins Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 i thought you were never supposed to put water into any hydraulic brake??? water is compressible (like air) where as brake fluid is not. having water in the system is nearly as bad as having air in there. well this is the case for a motorbike anyway so i'm assuming its the same for a push bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juhoman Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 You totally can waterbleed hydraulic RIM brakes. I am successfully running water bled maguras. Water doesn't compress, but if you bleed disc brakes with water, it boils and the steam compresses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksnell95 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 ive had both of my maguras water bled for about a month now and they are totally fine and most people i ride with have there brakes water bled so it cant be bad just remember to unwind your tpa other wise while adjusting your brake when riding you get air in the system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bing Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 i thought you were never supposed to put water into any hydraulic brake??? water is compressible (like air) where as brake fluid is not. having water in the system is nearly as bad as having air in there. well this is the case for a motorbike anyway so i'm assuming its the same for a push bike. right kidder little science lesson now(by the way i`m not being patronising). for starters maguras use mineral oil, this is not the same as brake fluid as it`s viscosity and corrosion properties are completely different. maguras run at a very low temperature compared to a disk brake and run a sealed system reservoir, as opposed to a disk brake such as a hope or formula, or any motorbike disk brake. this negates the need for expensive hydraulic(brake) fluid. also the compression properties of water and oil are completely different, for instance bleed your magura first with oil, then bath bleed it with water and i garauntee you will get a firmer lever feel from water. this is because water compresses alot less than oil, due to the density and oxygen(air) content of it. never assume anything mate. i`m not meaning to shoot you down, its just the two systems of braking are totally different, and therefore require different setting up. you are right in assuming this won`t work in a motorbike, and i know this because i have several of them. Brake fluid is used instead of water in a motorbike braking system because it has a much higher boiling point than water, and certain lubricating properties. as i mentioned earlier, you can use water in a magura because of the lower temperature working range. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Drummer Posted March 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 very helpful thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisboats Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 right kidder little science lesson now(by the way i`m not being patronising). for starters maguras use mineral oil, this is not the same as brake fluid as it`s viscosity and corrosion properties are completely different. maguras run at a very low temperature compared to a disk brake and run a sealed system reservoir, as opposed to a disk brake such as a hope or formula, or any motorbike disk brake. this negates the need for expensive hydraulic(brake) fluid. also the compression properties of water and oil are completely different, for instance bleed your magura first with oil, then bath bleed it with water and i garauntee you will get a firmer lever feel from water. this is because water compresses alot less than oil, due to the density and oxygen(air) content of it. never assume anything mate. i`m not meaning to shoot you down, its just the two systems of braking are totally different, and therefore require different setting up. you are right in assuming this won`t work in a motorbike, and i know this because i have several of them. Brake fluid is used instead of water in a motorbike braking system because it has a much higher boiling point than water, and certain lubricating properties. as i mentioned earlier, you can use water in a magura because of the lower temperature working range. There shouldn't be any air inside the brake. Just becuase water is a combination of hydrogen and oxygen molecules doesn't mean it has any more/ less "air" in than oil. If you're bleeding both properly any air pockets should be allowed to dissipate from the fluid before bleeding by leaving the fluid to stand or flicking the syringe and holding the syringe nozzle pointing upwards. You will not notice any compression difference between fluids before you've taken out variables such as pad density, frame flex, bolt flex and lever flex. You will however notice a difference in the return rate of the lever when you run a magura with water as opposed to oil. Water has a lower viscosity than oil so is generally said to be "snappier", "faster" or "more responsive" when used in a brake. To see what i mean take a look at this image and imagine these being the fluids inside your brake. Water would be the top fluid and oil would be the bottom fluid. Watch how each react when an object is dropped into them. The top fluid (lets say water in this case) would move through the pistons/hoses much easier than oil, making the magura feel altogether better in every way. After a time water can lead to the pistons losing free movement due to a lack of lubrication. A drop of finish line wet lube or similar thick oil on the piston seals will sort this problem in just a few minutes and will revitalise an old, tired, water bled brake. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieran Morrison Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 water is compressible (like air) No, water can be compressed but only a very small bit. Air compresses waaay more than water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoox Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 No, water can be compressed but only a very small bit. Air compresses waaay more than water. Should I use screenwash or engine antefreeze/coolant? Also, what type of antifreeze is least likely to cause damage to the paint and aluminium? In this web page Halfords suggest using organic acid technology (OAT) antifreeze. I suspect all engine antifreeze is OAT these days. My main concern is damaging the seals and paintwork. If the antifreeze contains alcohol it could potentially fücken up the seals (I've left some ethanol inside a syringe the other day and the rubber seal went all sticky). Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickkkkk Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 If you get the knack for bleeding properly you can get magura oil to run in the brake system so that it gives a good brake feel (like water). I found running the system with water, (before i learnt how to bleed properly) just caused the brake to seize up over a few months... Your best bet is to practice bleeding with a higher viscosity oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolver Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I found running the system with water, (before i learnt how to bleed properly) just caused the brake to seize up over a few months... This seems to be hit and miss, I've bled a lever in water and had it do this after a few months. I've also bled a lever and it's been fine for a year or two. Others have had the same lever for longer than that, running water with no issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoox Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 If you get the knack for bleeding properly you can get magura oil to run in the brake system so that it gives a good brake feel (like water). I found running the system with water, (before i learnt how to bleed properly) just caused the brake to seize up over a few months... Your best bet is to practice bleeding with a higher viscosity oil. Maybe I am just being silly but what does "bleeding properly" mean? As I see it, a proper bleed means first and foremost no air bubbles and second no traces of old oil. It is easier to fulfil these requirements when bath-bleeding because the whole brake is submerged in liquid so there is definitely no air. Now, all things being equal, water is always going to give better/snappier lever feel because it's less viscous. It's physics and it's nothing to do with the quality of your bleed. So I challenge your view that oil can give you the same lever feel as water. I also don't understand why you propose using a higher viscosity oil: if the original oil is already viscous enough to make people switch to water, how is higher viscosity oil going to help? Can anybody answer my question about antifreeze? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolver Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Can anybody answer my question about antifreeze? Feel free to bleed your brake with up to 100% antifreeze. It doesn't seem to corrode the internals. After all, a great deal of the hosing on a car that it runs through is plastic. Antifreeze, screenwash, mixed or concentrated, up to you. If you don't like the sound of neat concentrated screenwash or whatever you choose, you can mix it to 1:3, that's probably what it says on the bottle to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss-Higgy Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Click revolvers guide to bath bleed's in his signature box.. Very helpful And no anti freeze included Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickkkkk Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Maybe I am just being silly but what does "bleeding properly" mean? As I see it, a proper bleed means first and foremost no air bubbles and second no traces of old oil. It is easier to fulfil these requirements when bath-bleeding because the whole brake is submerged in liquid so there is definitely no air. Now, all things being equal, water is always going to give better/snappier lever feel because it's less viscous. It's physics and it's nothing to do with the quality of your bleed. So I challenge your view that oil can give you the same lever feel as water. I also don't understand why you propose using a higher viscosity oil: if the original oil is already viscous enough to make people switch to water, how is higher viscosity oil going to help? Can anybody answer my question about antifreeze? I never said the same, i said like. Both the viscosity of water and magura oil are capable of a snappy brake feel (why would they sell it if it was to thick and didn't offer good performance for the system)? If your bleeding with oil and it still feels at all spongy, then you have air in the system. Edited March 22, 2012 by Nickkkkk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeromboii Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Just use brake fluid. The fluid wouldn't cause you trouble were the water may cause trouble in the long run. I would just stick to the stuff your local bike shop sells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bing Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 if you mean dot brake fluid, you are wrong old lad. it will eat the seals. Maguras use mineral oil cos it's non corrosive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andeee Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 i don't see the point in it.. I have always been happy with my brake set ups n responses on my lever. Ok its good to experiment but its just a waste of time. Has any man ever ran a hope brake or car brakes on different fluid apart from dot 4????? The main keys to having a good brake: Decent pads Decent brake bleed Grind or smooth rim or maybe tar Can't go wrong at that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Reynolds Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 i don't see the point in it.. I have always been happy with my brake set ups n responses on my lever. Ok its good to experiment but its just a waste of time. Has any man ever ran a hope brake or car brakes on different fluid apart from dot 4????? Dot 5? Sorry, had to be said 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeromboii Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 if you mean dot brake fluid, you are wrong old lad. it will eat the seals. Maguras use mineral oil cos it's non corrosive I mean the stuff that Maguras use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolver Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Someone tried to use a hope lever on a magura once I think. It didn't work, the seals corroded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenmx50 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 The feel at the Lever with a water Bleed is SOOOOO much better!! I cant understand why people dont water bleed, its simple to do costs next to nothing, even if you purchase the syringe and tubes off tarty (which then makes it a real doddle to do) its probably less than buying a pot or Maggy Royal blood. Drummer: I use the same setup you have, HS33 Slaves and Echo TR Lever water bleed with 50:50 water antifreeze, never had a problem.. winner Ok so some people do have issues down the line with slaves seals sweling etc... This shouldnt happen for some time and when it does slaves dont cost a fortune and the price they cost is hugely out weighed by the lever feel you would have had all that time, IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dann2707 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Magura should start making the piston and seal kit again. Why do they stop making all the genuinely useful stuff? I haven't heard a positive thing yet about the new style lever body! Personally I don't think you can get much better than the 05, 4 finger lever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoox Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 The feel at the Lever with a water Bleed is SOOOOO much better!! I cant understand why people dont water bleed, its simple to do costs next to nothing, even if you purchase the syringe and tubes off tarty (which then makes it a real doddle to do) its probably less than buying a pot or Maggy Royal blood. Drummer: I use the same setup you have, HS33 Slaves and Echo TR Lever water bleed with 50:50 water antifreeze, never had a problem.. winner Ok so some people do have issues down the line with slaves seals sweling etc... This shouldn't happen for some time and when it does slaves dont cost a fortune and the price they cost is hugely out weighed by the lever feel you would have had all that time, IMO +1 I have the exact same set-up. By the way I phoned Tarty and they advised me to use engine antifreeze/coolant. They also said it was not a good idea to use screenwash, I guess it's because it has detergent which which is more likely to wash lubricant. I have bought 4 litres of OAT (organic acid technology) engine antifreeze/coolant and bath-bled my brake using 1 part antifreeze and 2 parts water. Works very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoox Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) I haven't heard a positive thing yet about the new style lever body! That would be because it is shit: bulky, heavier than most other hydraulic brake lever bodies (whether disc or rim), uses strange non-standard bolts, lever blade shape makes it easy for your finger to slip off it, cannot use shroud+olive so it's a bitch to replace a snapped hose, etc. In addition, the slave cylinders are too big so it's easy to hit your ankles on them, and the tolerances are ridiculous (the pad can be moved around, whereas in Echo brakes the pad has hardly any play). Today I shortened my hose and it was indeed a bitch to do. In my old pre-05 maggies this would have been a 1 minute job and I wouldn't risk gashing my finger with a stanley knife. By the way, is there an easy way to get the hose off the barbed fittings? I tried warming it up with a cigarette lighter but it didn't work very well, perhaps a hot-air gun? I'd like to know how you guys do this. Personally I don't think you can get much better than the 05, 4 finger lever. I'd say you can. In the 05 edition the hose leaves the lever body at an angle rather than parallel to the bars, which means that the hose, instead of running nice and close to the bars, sticks out and is more susceptible to snapping during a crash. Echo brakes are specifically designed for trials and are going to kick some Magura ass when they release the new SL at the end of the year. Edited March 23, 2012 by Scoox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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