New Member System - Good Or Bad?

[Kieran Morrison]

Just out of interest, who actually likes the new sin bin system? I dont particuarly think its working, plus the for sale rules have been changed let alone the spam is now in all sections of the forum, so yeah vote then say what you voted for, and why

[trials owns]

well its certainly got new memebers more involed..........good thing?? i find because of this the are giving crappy advise etc so its a inbetween for me weather its good or bad. new members are benefiting but the experience users are losing out.

[JT!]

Well the whole sin bin thing hasn't been set up yet, so at present there's no way to send a new member to the sin bin. So you can't really judge it yet.

Allowing new members straight into the form isn't going to be a good thing from the perspective of a member, so obviously it's going to appear to be a bad thing. The upside will only be seen by new members joining the forum, and in turn that'll improve the forum months down the road.

[Muel]

But on the downside, the number of posts written in terrible English (to the point where you struggle to read them) is increasing, the number of wankerish posts are increasing, and scammers can join and scam people freely now.

Take trials owns' post, (sorry to pick out but I wanted an example), how hard would it be to add some capitals in there and some punctuation? It would make it far more readable, even if the spelling mistakes were ignored. (IMO spelling mistakes don't make it much harder to read).

Under the old system if those mistakes were being made, the member wouldn't get validated, so they'd be pushed to sort out their english by other members, then they'd get validated and post higher quality, readable posts. Now there isn't any incentive, so there are a lot of members simply not bothering to make the effort.

[JT!]

Now there isn't any incentive, so there are a lot of members simply not bothering to make the effort.

Like I said before, everyone complaining about the system we have now doesn't seem realize that it isn't a permanent. It's just in transition. When we can kick people to the sin bin, it'll be a lot different. There isn't any incentive right now but there will be.

Until then we're just going to have to ride it out.

[Fish-Finger-er]

Take trials owns' post, (sorry to pick out but I wanted an example), how hard would it be to add some capitals in there and some punctuation? It would make it far more readable, even if the spelling mistakes were ignored. (IMO spelling mistakes don't make it much harder to read).

Erm, can i just question you a second, i think most of my posts are in proper english (i know i say words like reet etc, but i dont text talk) and i tend to use commas and fullstops,I split my text into blocks/paragraphs etc, however when i hardly ever capitalize correctly and never use apostrophes. Is my posting sufficiently bad that i should be back in NMC or the like?

EDIT : I purposefully didn't use apostrophes, or capitalize my I's in that post,even though normally I'd do it on as many as I noticed, but I generally miss a few/hit post without spellchecking/reading my post through so I can go correct them, as I know my spellings pretty much spot on and I can always edit later.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Fish-Finger-er

[Muel]

I don't know if it merits putting back in NMC, but it was much harder for me to read than if it had been capitalised where needed.

Maybe it's just me, but it makes a big difference to how quickly I can read and track posts. Yours aren't so difficult but when there is little punctuation and no capitalisation I keep getting stuck and having to go back.

[Fish-Finger-er]

I don't know if it merits putting back in NMC, but it was much harder for me to read than if it had been capitalised where needed.

Maybe it's just me, but it makes a big difference to how quickly I can read and track posts. Yours aren't so difficult but when there is little punctuation and no capitalisation I keep getting stuck and having to go back.

fair enough I'll try to be better from now on, the way I read stuff, if there is commas and fullstops there and the first word of every sentence is capitalized, I never ever notice apostrophes or capital I's or capital first letters of names when reading stuff, so quite often forget when I'm writing it(unless I'm sending an official email for work or whatever, in which case I read everything over and correct any I've missed then.)

Edited March 20, 2011 by Fish-Finger-er

[JT!]

Personally if I notice I've missed an apostrophe or not put a space after a comma,like this I can't post it, I have to go back and change it / edit it. It really does make a post extra difficult to read when decent punctuation isn't used. Also one big block of text drives me nuts too as I have difficulty finding the line I was on. But I wouldn't say that you should sin bin someone for typing like that, but telling them politely wouldn't go a miss.

At the end of the day it's ultimately up to the admin, and I know that Tom said missing capital letters from the beginning of sentencing is not sin bin worthy.

Edited March 20, 2011 by JT!

[Si-man]

Not everyone on this planet is an English wizz though. There are going to be people on here who aren't too good at it and struggle, only to be shot down in flames by the grammar Nazis.

Muel, if you you couldn't read Kevs post properly, then there is something up as it really wasn't difficult at all.

[Revolver]

It is a bit skank to deny someone access to a forum because they have toss english. It doesn't really help if this is the main forum for a niche sport as well.

The current system is fine.

[Fish-Finger-er]

Not everyone on this planet is an English wizz though. There are going to be people on here who aren't too good at it and struggle, only to be shot down in flames by the grammar Nazis.

Muel, if you you couldn't read Kevs post properly, then there is something up as it really wasn't difficult at all.

It's not that I'm bad at English in the slightest, if anything it is the opposite, because I know I write in paragraphs, and my spelling is really good I don't tend to proof read my posts, as I've never found apostrophes or capitalizing I's or names important to reading stuff, I don't do it when I text people and I text in proper English too. When read in context(which is how stuff is read) I never find don't any easier to read than dont, sure if it came from someone who wrote with extremely poor English and you could barely understand the rest of the sentence, I could understand why the apostrophe would help you work out what that one word meant(as the word could of been dent as it was that full of spelling mistakes). But if someone had posts that bad that you could barely read them, I'd think apostrophes wouldn't be the main issue.

The reason for asking is I've seen a few people on here suggest me for senior member a couple of times(something that I'm not overly fussed about.) I always viewed myself as not getting it because I like to rip into people/tell them about themselves a bit too much and outside of the car thread my knowledge, and therefore help is limited (not to mention my posting outside of chit chat is largely non-existent). As opposed to not being chosen because of my poor English.

reading the first few posts in here people who don't use perfect capitals and punctuation getting through to full members is a bad thing. As I believe it should be one rule for one,one rule for all I was a little worried that if JTs' whole janitor idea was implemented, Muel and JT would be sin binning me (quite rightly so) for the offence of not putting a capital at the start of their name when slagging them off, as that is the kind of stuff they'd be looking for in posts from a new member.

Granted I'm not going to change how I post in the hope of becoming a senior, as although It'd be nice to become one, I'm not going to change my behaviour in the hope of getting it as I just don't want it that bad,sure the Tartybikes 25% discount and access to Joe Mahers' back catalogue of naked photoshoots with male actors would be a perk, but as I neither ride or practise homosexuality no more, I wouldn't make use of them. I also think there are plenty of people who should get it long before I do. But if all of a sudden I might be sin binned for life, I guess I best stick a bit more effort into my posts.

EDIT: hang on, why the hell am I saying this to you two, your both bloody northern, you can barely speak the language.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Fish-Finger-er

[Bucky]

It's not that I'm bad at English in the slightest, if anything it is the opposite, because I know I write in paragraphs, and my spelling is really good I don't tend to proof read my posts, as I've never found apostrophes or capitalizing I's or names important to reading stuff, I don't do it when I text people and I text in proper English too. When read in context(which is how stuff is read) I never find don't any easier to read than dont, sure if it came from someone who wrote with extremely poor English and you could barely understand the rest of the sentence, I could understand why the apostrophe would help you work out what that one word meant(as the word could of been dent as it was that full of spelling mistakes). But if someone had posts that bad that you could barely read them, I'd think apostrophes wouldn't be the main issue.

The reason for asking is I've seen a few people on here suggest me for senior member a couple of times(something that I'm not overly fussed about.) I always viewed myself as not getting it because I like to rip into people/tell them about themselves a bit too much and outside of the car thread my knowledge, and therefore help is limited (not to mention my posting outside of chit chat is largely non-existent). As opposed to not being chosen because of my poor English.

reading the first few posts in here people who don't use perfect capitals and punctuation getting through to full members is a bad thing. As I believe it should be one rule for one,one rule for all I was a little worried that if JTs' whole janitor idea was implemented, Muel and JT would be sin binning me (quite rightly so) for the offence of not putting a capital at the start of their name when slagging them off, as that is the kind of stuff they'd be looking for in posts from a new member.

Granted I'm not going to change how I post in the hope of becoming a senior, as although It'd be nice to become one, I'm not going to change my behaviour in the hope of getting it as I just don't want it that bad,sure the Tartybikes 25% discount and access to Joe Mahers' back catalogue of naked photoshoots with male actors would be a perk, but as I neither ride or practise homosexuality no more, I wouldn't make use of them. I also think there are plenty of people who should get it long before I do. But if all of a sudden I might be sin binned for life, I guess I best stick a bit more effort into my posts.

EDIT: hang on, why the hell am I saying this to you two, your both bloody northern, you can barely speak the language.

TL;DR

[Greetings]

There hasn't been an outbreak of crap and nonesense since NMC disappeared. On that basis I think it's working well so far.

[dirt jumper jake]

There hasn't been an outbreak of crap and nonesense since NMC disappeared.

YET

[JT!]

It's not that I'm bad at English in the slightest, if anything it is the opposite, because I know I write in paragraphs, and my spelling is really good I don't tend to proof read my posts, as I've never found apostrophes or capitalizing I's or names important to reading stuff, I don't do it when I text people and I text in proper English too. When read in context(which is how stuff is read) I never find don't any easier to read than dont, sure if it came from someone who wrote with extremely poor English and you could barely understand the rest of the sentence, I could understand why the apostrophe would help you work out what that one word meant(as the word could of been dent as it was that full of spelling mistakes). But if someone had posts that bad that you could barely read them, I'd think apostrophes wouldn't be the main issue.

The reason for asking is I've seen a few people on here suggest me for senior member a couple of times(something that I'm not overly fussed about.) I always viewed myself as not getting it because I like to rip into people/tell them about themselves a bit too much and outside of the car thread my knowledge, and therefore help is limited (not to mention my posting outside of chit chat is largely non-existent). As opposed to not being chosen because of my poor English.

reading the first few posts in here people who don't use perfect capitals and punctuation getting through to full members is a bad thing. As I believe it should be one rule for one,one rule for all I was a little worried that if JTs' whole janitor idea was implemented, Muel and JT would be sin binning me (quite rightly so) for the offence of not putting a capital at the start of their name when slagging them off, as that is the kind of stuff they'd be looking for in posts from a new member.

Granted I'm not going to change how I post in the hope of becoming a senior, as although It'd be nice to become one, I'm not going to change my behaviour in the hope of getting it as I just don't want it that bad,sure the Tartybikes 25% discount and access to Joe Mahers' back catalogue of naked photoshoots with male actors would be a perk, but as I neither ride or practise homosexuality no more, I wouldn't make use of them. I also think there are plenty of people who should get it long before I do. But if all of a sudden I might be sin binned for life, I guess I best stick a bit more effort into my posts.

EDIT: hang on, why the hell am I saying this to you two, your both bloody northern, you can barely speak the language.

1. Sin Bin is only for New Members. Regular Members would not be able to be sin bin'ed.

2. If you're going to write a small essay in a topic, make sure you go back and proof read it, especially when you start the post with saying how you're great at English, then make about a dozen grammatical errors after that.

[Fish-Finger-er]

Never said I was good at English, just said my spelling is really good,as is my typing(so I know I don't make spelling mistakes and generally don't make typing errors, so always assume my post will be readable and don't proof read it, and therefore don't correct grammatical errors(of which there is always plenty I'm aware, I write half my posts on my phone, so write how I would in a text/msn conversation).

If regular members can't be sin binned, isn't that a bit off, one rule for one, one rule for the others.

I currently agree with the way things are,with no new members chat, it's just that I feel sin binning new members for small errors, if they use txt talk fair enough, but if they misspell a couple of words or the like, I don't feel it should be sin binnable. Providing they've made some effort to post comprehensible English let them off IMO.

For what it's worth I quite like the whole thing JT suggested of janitors or the like to stick this system into effect, I just think that it'd end up being a bunch of grammar Nazis, and new members would hesitate about posting because of the threat of sin bin, when they may have something of worth to say, but cant work possessive apostrophes or some shizzle.

[dann2707]

I wonder if the domain www.trials-forum-and-grammar-nazis.co.uk is taken?

Think it would be a worthwhile switch imo...

[JT!]

Never said I was good at English, just said my spelling is really good,as is my typing(so I know I don't make spelling mistakes and generally don't make typing errors, so always assume my post will be readable and don't proof read it, and therefore don't correct grammatical errors(of which there is always plenty I'm aware, I write half my posts on my phone, so write how I would in a text/msn conversation).

If regular members can't be sin binned, isn't that a bit off, one rule for one, one rule for the others.

I currently agree with the way things are,with no new members chat, it's just that I feel sin binning new members for small errors, if they use txt talk fair enough, but if they misspell a couple of words or the like, I don't feel it should be sin binnable. Providing they've made some effort to post comprehensible English let them off IMO.

For what it's worth I quite like the whole thing JT suggested of janitors or the like to stick this system into effect, I just think that it'd end up being a bunch of grammar Nazis, and new members would hesitate about posting because of the threat of sin bin, when they may have something of worth to say, but cant work possessive apostrophes or some shizzle.

Oh fair enough.

The idea for the sin bin is to kind of replace the validation system. It's not a different set of rules for different people as the rules are the same for everyone. The idea is based around most of the new members being fine, but you get idiots, spammers and people who are breaking the rules. If a new member signs up and follows the rules, they'll have absolutely no problems what so ever (it's very rare to see someones' posts degrade so once they've made X amount of posts they'll be made into a full member).

There's no need to be able to sin bin full members as they've already gone through the process of being a new member, it was very rare on this forum for someone to be validated and then have to send them back to new members (pre-validation votes) so I don't see not being able to sin bin a regular member an issue.

There just has to be something there to catch the people the old validation system stopped. I think it's very fair. It's switching from a 'guilty until proven innocent' to a 'innocent until proven guilty' system which is a huge step in the right direction.

And also at the moment I believe sin bin'ed members can post in any forum once every 24 hours, so it still allows them to post and to be un-sin bin'ed, but if they resume breaking the rules it won't have much of an effect on the forum @ 1 post a day.

The reason spelling and grammar is such an issue is that it's impossible to tell which posts are a little iffy and which are enough to be considered breaking the rules. Every other rule on TF (like posting asking prices in FS and not advertising) are very clear cut and aren't open to judgement. This is why I felt the janitor idea was valid because (as you said with the grammar natzi comment), giving all the regular members option to sin bin people is giving too many people the option of judging what is or isn't breaking the rules with regards to grammar and spelling and there's going to be no consistency with so many people.

It's easy to see the inconsistency in TF's history too. I've seen a couple of Mods say "I won't validate anyone who doesn't start a sentence with a capital letter" (when only mods could validate) but there's plenty of members who do this and don't get sent back to new members, however I always summed this up to be like passing a driving test. Got to do it perfect on your test then no one's really watching you when you're driving for real so stuff will slip.

Anyway, that's enough over analyzing from me.

Edited March 20, 2011 by JT!

[bikeperson45]

The grammar argument seems pretty stupid to me, it's not like we're going into really specific English rules, more the capital letter rules that are taught to students around the age of 5.

Although it doesn't actually make a difference for my reading, I just do it out of instinct.

Edited March 20, 2011 by bikeperson45

[tomturd]

Anyway, that's enough over analyzing from me.

I dont have time to reply to all the posts in here, the long and short of it is I think its working pretty bloody well.

The sin bin system isn't in place. It was half implemented (hence the 6 members being in there) but after a few days of being without NMC I didn't see the influx of crap that I was expecting, in fact I was nicely suprised. We've certainly got a few new decent members, and its good that they're not pissed off by the time they get to access the full site. For a while we had a lot of spammers (note: not scammers) signing up, but I put some stuff in place and that appears to have calmed down now. Moderating time has gone down, reports have gone down, emails asking 'why cant i post' are non existent, visitor numbers have gone up.

I do think we need a couple more mods to catch any 'edge cases'.

Keiren, you say there is a load of spam, but I can't see it, nor can I see any reports in the report center from you

If you do see spam, report it and it won't be long before it gets removed

[JT!]

I would think you's need at least 2 people to fill in the Mark shaped hole.

[Luke Dunstan]

If you're worried abut scammers, this is a pubic forum so you have to buy/sell at your own risk.

I have left a grammatical error in the post for the grammar Nazis to scoff over.

[jacksnell95]

i thought it's a good idea

but off topic abit i think people need to grow up abit and instead of sitting on here all the time getting like 1000 post's which are from correcting peoples spelling ect.

they should go ride there bike countless times ive had people on here have a go at me for how i layed out my post, my spelling, capital letters and punctuation.

i mean we can all read what it they have written so why pick holes in it?

[Luke Dunstan]

i thought it's a good idea

but off topic abit i think people need to grow up abit and instead of sitting on here all the time getting like 1000 post's which are from correcting peoples spelling ect.

they should go ride there bike countless times ive had people on here have a go at me for how i layed out my post, my spelling, capital letters and punctuation.

i mean we can all read what it they have written so why pick holes in it?

I thought it's a good idea.

But off topic a bit, I think people need to grow up a bit and instead of sitting on here all the time getting like 1000 posts which are from correcting peoples spelling etc.

they should go ride their bike. Countless times I've had people on here have a go at me for how I laid out my post, my spelling, capital letters and punctuation.

I mean we can all read what it they have written so why pick holes in it?