On The Subject Of The Impending Energy Crisis.

[1a2bcio8]

Do I even need to say? Is there any point anyway? Sanity is so easily rationalised away in the service of selfishness; that quality of great irony that convinces the individual that it offers something substantial with laziness and having but which actually pales in comparison to the quality and acts of giving a shit about those beyond you. Those former rewards are superficial but the rewards of actually feeling something for those around you, whatever form of life they take, are inherently deeper. Isn't this really obvious?

I keep making silly tautologies. Too much drugz

Sorry Mike for being rude. I shouldn't let this stuff weigh on me but it's all so f**king insane. I don't want to understate that so here's a big INSANE.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Ben Rowlands

[MadManMike]

On the stupid scale, you're what I'd class as another level - in a good way. Every post you make is almost too clever to the point of me not understanding it.

I'd like to think I'm half way up the ladder. When I first said "I hate stupid people" I was referring to those that can't even do basic grocery shopping without stopping to think about every minor detail. The kind of people that queue for half an hour, then after packing all their stuff decide it's time to work out which payment method to use. The kind of folk that leave their trolleys sideways in an aisle, then give you a foul look for requesting that they move it. In other words, the kind of people too stupid to even work out how to register on this site, let alone post here.

So yep, compared to some I am stupid. Compared to 80% of my town, I'm a f**king rocket scientist.

Oh, and I don't get easily offended, so be as rude as you like - I'm quite often rude and won't usually apologise unless it's uncalled for.

[Matt Vandart]

On the stupid scale, you're what I'd class as another level - in a good way. Every post you make is almost too clever to the point of me not understanding it.

I'd like to think I'm half way up the ladder. When I first said "I hate stupid people" I was referring to those that can't even do basic grocery shopping without stopping to think about every minor detail. The kind of people that queue for half an hour, then after packing all their stuff decide it's time to work out which payment method to use. The kind of folk that leave their trolleys sideways in an aisle, then give you a foul look for requesting that they move it. In other words, the kind of people too stupid to even work out how to register on this site, let alone post here.

So yep, compared to some I am stupid. Compared to 80% of my town, I'm a f**king rocket scientist.

Oh, and I don't get easily offended, so be as rude as you like - I'm quite often rude and won't usually apologise unless it's uncalled for.

This

[JD™]

I ride a bicycle and don't own a car. Bow down to me.

My bicycle has no seat (EDIT: Ok, technically it does, but hardly..) and I drive my girlfriends car because I don't want to buy another shit heap.

Edited January 16, 2011 by JD™

[1a2bcio8]

I'm too worn out to continue this. I'll say some brief stuff though.

I don't think you're stupid in general but I do think it's stupid to think you can't do anything and to not recognise that thinking this is just a made up reason to support a kind of laziness and fear of losing certain things within your life. I have all sorts of areas in my life where I'm also stupid but this one is quite important to not be stupid about because it relates to self preservation and for those who actually care about life beyond ourselves, the preservation and/or quality of life of those around us. Caring for those around you, when done properly, WILL reward you more than the having of laziness, stuff and so on.

And I don't want to be a dick about all this. It contradicts and defeats the philosophy I'm rambling on about. In the act of being a dick I'm just being selfish about my need to release my concerns about other peoples selfishness and ignorance. Better to focus that into trying to offer a different and hopefully more sane way of looking at the world.

I also relate to the people that block the isle. That irks me. They might as well be dribbling down themselves. It seems to fit with the state of ignorance they have to those around them.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Ben Rowlands

[JD™]

Caring for those around you, when done properly, WILL reward you more than the having of laziness, stuff and so on.

At the risk of sounding like a complete dick, and I hope you understand I'm not aiming for that, but merely looking from another angle: How's this working out for you?

Based on many other posts of yours, not well.

There's a balance, in my eyes. I treat people with as much respect as I can muster (more in 'real life' than here) and expect it back (hence not expecting any here). The problem with the whole 'energy crisis' stuff is that I want to get stuff done - I'm not going to stop getting stuff done because it might mean that Mr Xs children might have less petrol unless everyone else does. Unfortunately someone has to show that it is MORE commercially viable to be 'good' than 'evil' before people will do it. Whether we like it or not, money makes the world go round, NOT happy thoughts. Either embrace that or deal with the fact that it isn't going to go your way.

It's a sad truth, but it's a truth nonetheless.

EDIT: And a badly written one, but I'm sure you get the gist.

Edited January 16, 2011 by JD™

[MadManMike]

I know what I want to say, but I know that what I write here won't fully put my point across so I'm going to leave the debate...

[1a2bcio8]

At the risk of sounding like a complete dick, and I hope you understand I'm not aiming for that, but merely looking from another angle: How's this working out for you?

Based on many other posts of yours, not well.

There's a balance, in my eyes. I treat people with as much respect as I can muster (more in 'real life' than here) and expect it back (hence not expecting any here). The problem with the whole 'energy crisis' stuff is that I want to get stuff done - I'm not going to stop getting stuff done because it might mean that Mr Xs children might have less petrol unless everyone else does. Unfortunately someone has to show that it is MORE commercially viable to be 'good' than 'evil' before people will do it. Whether we like it or not, money makes the world go round, NOT happy thoughts. Either embrace that or deal with the fact that it isn't going to go your way.

It's a sad truth, but it's a truth nonetheless.

EDIT: And a badly written one, but I'm sure you get the gist.

I was quite aware that I was going to be open to attack in the sense that you've pointed out. I don't claim to be particularly good in the sense of being selfless although I have had enough experiences with regard to the opposites here and I'm very convinced of the reward of selflessness over selfishness. Selflessness is always associated with love, compassion, etc. and selfishness with hatred, greed, etc. The latter do not feel good by matter of fact. And anyway my life isn't just pure depression. It often offers periods of quite intense happiness but punctuated by the periods of the opposite of that. My problem is the fact that this tends to ruin any long term attempts at whatever respective activity. Furthermore, I wouldn't reduce happiness to just the quality of selflessness. Like most things in life the situation is more complex than that with problems and rewards arising from a wide aray of factors.

You're obviously holding a similar position to the other people that I want to criticise. What more can I say? You're choosing selfishness over selflessness. From my position you're caught up in the prevailing attitude of your society. And you're wrong if you think that the current socio-economic model is anything that has to stay. Just check out history. It's something that's always influx. It's the nature and pattern of existence.

You say money makes the world go round and not happiness ("happy thoughts") but this is just another example of a common misunderstanding. An interest in money follows from the unconscious identification with it and happiness or pleasure. "If I just get money to buy this or that or achieve status I will be happy or I will feel good" is the underlying thought process that people miss. So it's an attempt at happiness that makes the world go round. If so, the means that brings the greatest happiness is clearly the better means. In this sense obviously I would argue that selflessness is a better means and greatly so for more reasons than I've stated.

There are so many similar thought processes of unexamined presuppositions that define a persons behaviour and which we absorb both implicitly and explicitly from society. This is why the "masters of living" often talk of us being asleep. We're basically just socially programmed bio-computers blind to that fact in any experiential sense until we start reflecting upon it. Then we can actually start shaping ourselves and hopefully in saner ways that actually better accord with our nature.

But there's no chance I'm going to embrace what you're seemingly in support of (?). But perhaps you just mean acceptance rather than the more positive term, embracement? I'm willing to work on acceptance but that doesn't mean anything about resignation to also changing the crazy thing I've accepted in the future.

That was too much effort. I'm really tired and f**ked from ingesting stuff so hopefully this isn't too incoherrent.

[munkee]

Ben I believe you think too indepth about things. There is always a need to do this in a discussion which is fine but I think getting worked up on the way some people tick compared to yourself would send you insane.

[JD™]

What more can I say?

Quite a lot, as it turns out!

I'm afraid I don't think you quite 'got' my post. I am not materialistic, and ironically that stems from not being able to afford stuff. That, in the long term, forced me to make do with what I had and find that actually that wasn't a bad way of living.

What I'm talking about is getting things done. I live my life trying to accomplish things, not for the monetary gain (although I'm not going to turn down any that comes my way as a result of working hard) but because I love to look back on a week/month/year/decade and compare myself to then and say "What have I done since then?". To get things done, I often need to use other things, and because of my monetary situation and the fact that oddly other people want paying for their goods and services I have to use cheap ways to do that. Generally the cheapest ways are the most damaging - that's a broad generalisation but it's tight enough not to bother picking too many holes in.

My love of getting things done trumps my care for the environment or any future generations right now. Yea that's selfish, but I'm happy - does that mean I succeeded or failed?

Another non attack, just using your situation to paint a picture of my point - if/when you fail uni (again? not sure on that bit) due to your depression amongst other things, do you think you'll ever look back and wish you could have acted just a little more 'selfishly' so that you could have got yourself to do what needed to be done?

That's where my original point about balance comes in again - don't be a money driven cock, but also don't be someone who ignores what can help make them happy just because it doesn't fit with some holier than thou attitude.

[1a2bcio8]

From my position it doesn't much matter if the having is about a memory or the having is about a material. What's important, especially with reference to happiness, is the intention which leads to them. Materialism, like any other form of having, is really only about ideas anyway but I won't go into the reasons for that and bore everyone.

I'm not talking about complete selflessness anyway, just a significant movement in that direction, that follows from a genuine concern and interest in those around us. Maybe not going on as many holidays, driving so much, using energy efficient products, etc. What's important is seeing the value in having a concern and beginning to move in that direction. When we miss the value of selflessness then we're in trouble.

The trouble with balance is, in the broader sense, we're not balancing our energy wants with the actual energy available. It's like knowing your bottle of water needs to last you a few days in the desert but drinking it all in one go when you get a bit thirsty because this offers you a greatly satisfying experience that you can have the next day. Even if this means harming or even killing yourself later on.

Happiness comes in degrees. You probably won't believe me but I do have some insight into this steming from personal experience in relation to my practices of meditation and yoga. There are much greater degrees of happiness to be found aside from the types of having that you're going on about. Several months back in a lecture I suddenly felt filled with an unconditional love for those around me, where all the usual judgements against people broke down and I felt that the best course of action was just to serve people in the best way I could. That shitted over all my other experiences including any bike line I've been really pleased with or any other kind of having. Shame it only lasted an hour but it was, none the less, a taste of what's possible. I've had similar experiences in the past particularly so on meditation retreats. This is what I mean about the irony of selfishness. It doesn't serve you as well as you think it does but it's very good at convincing you otherwise.

And I'd feel much worse if in the areas that I have managed to not be selfish I was then selfish for such superficial gains. I'm too aware of what that quality means to choose it in such a conscious way. This wouldn't help uni anyway. Similarly in the sense that I can't just join in with many of the conventions within this world even though that alienates me - being dumped by my last two gfs in part of for not being motivated enough toward money, and activities like driving because I hold developing wisdom and a concern for the environment, respectively, in higher regard. To try otherwise would be an act that was boring and too energy consuming even if it did offer more of a sense of belonging. I mean, would you dress up in a clown suit of that's

Anyway, again, I hope this makes some sense. My mind is a bit scrambled from binging on codeine.

Ben I believe you think too indepth about things. There is always a need to do this in a discussion which is fine but I think getting worked up on the way some people tick compared to yourself would send you insane.

Yeah getting worked up probably doesn't do me any good. When you feel everyone is acting f**king crazy though it becomes a bit difficult to stand next to it all in a calm way. Whole societies can be insane and I think our society is that. The point needs to get through.

[JD™]

I don't really get how you can have this all encompassing empathy for other people and things while still talking to me as if I'm stupid and don't/can't/wont understand or believe the points you're making.

I ask very simple questions because they bring out very simple FACTUAL answers. You have made it very clear over the past few months that you are not happy - I and many others have tried to offer help in one way or another which generally seems to be disregarded. Absolutely fine, your choices and your life. The question I made about my happiness being a success or a failure was getting at this: I'm happy, you don't seem to be. How on earth can that make my way of doing things 'wrong'?

If you're pursuing happiness, and that's what makes your world go round, and yet you're unhappy, are you not failing at your own philosophy? Going off topic completely here, but I suppose it's our differing philosophies which give us our differing views on the original topic.

If you could take back that hour of overwhelming love so that you wouldn't be able to compare against it, would you? I for one would much rather be blissfully unaware of something so seemingly irreplicable than to spend my time pinning the tail on the donkey to get there again.

You're taking my balance point to a global scale, but it's not about that. It's about personal balance, something I would have expected you to embrace rather than push away. Like someone on a diet allowing themselves the treats that keep them sane, or me as an individual using far too much petrol to get everywhere that bit quicker to get more things done in a day than if I drove slowly and economically. It makes me happy, and a happy world without oil is better than a miserable world with.

Edited January 16, 2011 by JD™

[Matt Vandart]

Well that was good, I believe both of you are talking absolute sense from 2 different angles.

JDs is very realist and very valid.

Bens is very optimistic which may sound strange but I think its optomistic because what he is saying is I KNOW this to be true and you can also find it to be true, but a bit unrealistic.

It is true that the poorer you are the less options you have on this subject but ironically and rather nicely you have less to lose.

Or something.

[1a2bcio8]

I don't really get how you can have this all encompassing empathy for other people and things while still talking to me as if I'm stupid and don't/can't/wont understand or believe the points you're making.

I ask very simple questions because they bring out very simple FACTUAL answers. You have made it very clear over the past few months that you are not happy - I and many others have tried to offer help in one way or another which generally seems to be disregarded. Absolutely fine, your choices and your life. The question I made about my happiness being a success or a failure was getting at this: I'm happy, you don't seem to be. How on earth can that make my way of doing things 'wrong'?

If you're pursuing happiness, and that's what makes your world go round, and yet you're unhappy, are you not failing at your own philosophy? Going off topic completely here, but I suppose it's our differing philosophies which give us our differing views on the original topic.

If you could take back that hour of overwhelming love so that you wouldn't be able to compare against it, would you? I for one would much rather be blissfully unaware of something so seemingly irreplicable than to spend my time pinning the tail on the donkey to get there again.

You're taking my balance point to a global scale, but it's not about that. It's about personal balance, something I would have expected you to embrace rather than push away. Like someone on a diet allowing themselves the treats that keep them sane, or me as an individual using far too much petrol to get everywhere that bit quicker to get more things done in a day than if I drove slowly and economically. It makes me happy, and a happy world without oil is better than a miserable world with.

I've already addressed much of what you're saying in my previous post but you've obviously missed that. I will admit that I'm aware that my points haven't been expressed in a very lucid form because of intoxication so furry muff on that count. I can't be bothered with discussing this anymore (saying the same things over in a different way) aside from adding that often people become used to a functional level of happiness and take it for some meaningful level when really it isn't. It's not until some awareness of something more is experienced that we can properly understand how limited what we previously thought happiness was.

I'm not sure what you mean by my disregard of advice about my unhappiness? Maybe I've forgotten though.

My manner has been below par of recent so I apologise for that and I hope this doesn't cause much in the way of animosity. However I am going to speak honestly about what I consider to be a real problem for human beings. It's a simple fact that we often end up unconsciously adopting philosophies and rationalising in support of them for various reasons even if those philosophies are pretty much insane and quite limiting to our happiness. This is my view about society in general. I can have such an insight independent of my mental health; which can anyway relate to factors aside from selfishness anyway. Okay so I've said more than I said I would but I'm ending it here. I'll read any response but I doubt I'll respond myself.

[JD™]

Perhaps the reason the debate didn't go anywhere was that when I asked very simple questions I got no answers to take it forward, you completely ignore them. Not to worry, and no animosity from my end, that's for sure. A good debate overall

[1a2bcio8]

Sorry Matt but how I can be being unrealistic if I'm talking from experience? Or do you mean the sense of wanting that human potential to become a social norm?

Oh and most types of realism just tend to be a kind of conservative, self fulfilling prophecy. Of couse nothing is going to change if you say it can't because then you don't try. Yet history has continually changed as a result of optimisitc philosophies and understandings. A quick consideration of history negates attempts at that type of rationalisation. I support realism against blind optimism of course but that's a different kind of thing.

The trouble is greed and selfishness are such powerful motivators of self delusion.

Perhaps the reason the debate didn't go anywhere was that when I asked very simple questions I got no answers to take it forward, you completely ignore them. Not to worry, and no animosity from my end, that's for sure. A good debate overall

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree there. I may not have addressed your answers in the way you think I should have but I felt my answers were pertinent to what you were saying in terms of the way I analyse.

[Matt Vandart]

Sorry Matt but how I can be being unrealistic if I'm talking from experience? Or do you mean the sense of wanting that human potential to become a social norm?

Oh and most types of realism just tend to be a kind of conservative, self fulfilling prophecy. Of couse nothing is going to change if you say it can't because then you don't try. Yet history has continually changed as a result of optimisitc philosophies and understandings. A quick consideration of history negates attempts at that type of rationalisation. I support realism against blind optimism of course but that's a different kind of thing.

The trouble is greed and selfishness are such powerful motivators of self delusion.

I understand exacery what you are talking about as I have had various point in my life one could describe as epiphanies or peeks into enlightenment.

The usual reaction I get to explaining these concepts, thoughts and theories is 'Thats because your mad Matty' or 'Thats because your a smackhead Matty' (they have all seen twin town) something along those lines.

The general public is mostly to deluded, unaware, brainwashed, scared etc. to admit to thinking differently especially in public, or even to think differently at all.

You say it is greed and selfishness that are the primary motivators for societies insanity, I say it is fear.

Scared to admit to others and themselves that they have been strung along, brainwashed, influenced and even bullied into the position of 'consumer'.

With Maxwells ascension to media King the last part of the farm is complete, let the harvest begin as it were.

[Mark W]

Do as I say, not as I do, eh?

[Matt Vandart]

Pretty much yeah.

[Mark W]

Right.

Hmm...

EDIT: Actually, never mind.

[Matt Vandart]

I will admit openly that I am a consumer, and have been a pretty good one for the last lets say 20 years.

However I have not consumed to the best of my ability, I could probably drive around in a 50k car but for the last 6 years I have driven around in a banged up old mitsubishi L200 that cost me six grand when I bought it and have recently ditched that and drive my birds battered old Lupo/Arosa.

I often go to work in helicopters and Jet liners, or drive hundreds of miles when there is probably someone local to the job that could do an equally good job if not better.

I dont live in a house anywhere near my financial 'status' but do live in a 400yr old farmhouse that has long ago paid back any energy cost it incurred in making it.

I may well continue being a consumer for as long as I can afford to be one, until prices are out of my reach.

I have also directly contributed in the continuation of the oil/energy madness actively helping it to continue at the supply level.

These are all conscious decisions I have made after much thought and ones I may pay for mentally if the worse case senarios of this energy transition play out.

I have taken 9months out of working to reflect on where my life is going and what I want to do, consciously making a decision to buy very little 'stuff' in that time and I am AWARE that my consumerism is brought about by the constant hammering I get from media and local sources, including, by the way, here.

I can now choose whether or not to continue my futile pursuit of purchased happiness based on having been exposed to both sides of the coin.

That is not the point of the topic. In fact the topic has wandered way off course as they generally do.

After all In my initial post I asked what are other peoples awareness and what are THEY doing about it, I have not once instructed people on what they should do about it, that is up to each individual.

Luckily because I am an old fart I will probably miss the real problems that are to come if human thinking does not change soon, but some on here are young enough to be still around when shit fits the fan.

Alterantively I may have missed your point by miles Mark this is quite likely.

[Mark W]

I have not once instructed people on what they should do about it, that is up to each individual.

You haven't 'instructed', but describing people as 'brainwashed', 'strung along', etc., isn't exactly describing others in a favourable light, and most of the time in these sorts of posts you appear to be speaking as though everyone's beneath you because you're so 'aware' of these problems that are going along. However, as you just admitted, you're still a consumer (even if you aren't spending as much of your apparent wealth as you say you could do, you're still actively going out and spending it on things that aren't necessary which is a fairly big 'I am a consumer' kind of action to perform), and as you also said your carbon footprint and all that other sort of shit relating to consumption of oil in all it's forms as a result of your job (which I seem to remember you saying you hated, yet you still do - for the money you don't seem to want to use?) isn't exactly great. Essentially, what I'm getting at is that I find it a bit rich that you're acting in what seems to be a fairly self-righteous/holier than thou way, yet you're still doing exactly the same things that you're accusing others of. I don't understand how simply having the awareness that what you're doing is 'bad' makes doing it any better than someone who's unaware doing the same thing. Knowing that your actions are 'negative' doesn't in any way change the fact that they ARE 'negative', and if you're still going about doing them whilst fully aware that they're negative seems almost worse to me than someone who's blissfully ignorant of what they're doing.

[1a2bcio8]

Your point probably includes me so I would like to give a quick response. I think the terms Matt has used (brainwashed, etc.) are quite applicable to people in general although I would also like to apply them to myself - I don't know what Matt thinks about that with regards to himself? - but with a consideration of degree. I will claim about myself, although not as a means of self elevation, that I think I'm not quite as brainwashed as other people. I've spent a lot of time reading alternative philosophies, meditating, etc. all of which help break you out of more socially constrained thinking. Based on what I've heard from Matt I would suggest something similar of him. Also, some of us, although still somewhat entrenched in that which we criticise, are constantly making the difficult movements away from it. I wouldn't claim the change I support to be easy and in that sense, just holding the philosophy, doesn't mean an instant and easy change into the respective activity. I really don't see anything wrong in criticising that which needs to be criticised (because it's unhealthy, insane, etc.) even if we're still caught up in it. It's always the first step of changing it.

But yeah, if somebody judges other people for this and makes no or very little effort themselves or even just holds onto the idea to elevate themselves above others then that is no good. But still being caught up to some degree with what you're criticising is not neccesarily synonymous with that. I've been approaching this thread in the wrong way and I know that but I'm allowing my personal problems to affect me. I've needed to vent and picking on people that seem to be more, contextually, caught up in selfishness than me are easy targets, especially when you feel social sanity and well being to something of the utmost importance. I usually try to be more understanding and considerate in my contributions and I hope that comes across. You don't really get anywhere by being a dick

I hope this makes sense. No doubt there's repetition, bad grammar, etc. but I'm a bit f**ked up at the moment and it's hard to tell even when I try and read back.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Ben Rowlands

[Matt Vandart]

Absolutely correct even down to the hating of my job, this is one of the many reasons I hate my job, unfortunately it seems I am not able to do anything else and I have other consumers that depend on me for their funding/welfare.

On the brainwashing point, I have in the above post admitted openly that I am as brain washed as everyone else.

In fact after much thought I have decided to be very selfish indeed and am going to go back and get as big a slice of the energy pie as I can in order to fund my self sufficient smallholding (both energy/ water and in terms of food) to which I shall be mostly retreating from it all with a FBG.

You are also correct about the 'innocent' and ignorant, it makes me no better at all, it makes me worse, this can however be changed if I decide to, which is what this thread is all about, gaining information about what I can actually do about it and whether to bother at all.

[Mark W]

But yeah, if somebody judges other people for this and makes no or very little effort themselves or even just holds onto the idea to elevate themselves above others then that is no good.

That was pretty much my main beef with it, in that due to the tones used that was what appeared to be going on. If it wasn't then I apologise, but it seemed that way.

've spent a lot of time reading alternative philosophies, meditating, etc. all of which help break you out of more socially constrained thinking.

Interestingly (well, I say interestingly...) most of the people I knew who were involved in any way with philosophy at all were able to break out of the conventional 'socially contrained [way of] thinking' but leapt head first into their new, less mainstream's 'socially contrained thinking' without even really seeming to realise that they were doing it. Not applying that to you at all, it just amused me at the time - as well as making me decide to not pursue my interest in philosophy any further in an academic sense.