Back Once Again... Bb Rise Question On New Bike

[MK999]

Had a quick look in last year sometime as I was after a 24" trials bike after trying out BMXing and finding it doesn't really suit me at all (I'm 6'1 so it was fairly awkward) and also I was trying/wanting to do more trials style stuff like hopping/rocking onto low brick walls etc on the BMX.

I've recently found a 26" Trials bike that I believe can be had for <£100, looking around it seems to be quite well reviewed from what little I can find, it's a 2001 bike so there's not much info on it. The only thing I can see that concerns me is it seems to have a negative BB rise (I think! The bottom bracket appears to be very slightly below the line drawn between the axles/hubs). Which only ever seems to get mentioned as a bad thing/questions it even being a proper trials bike? Only info I can find seems to suggest that it makes the bike more stable/predictable but less reactive to input to have it closer to 0, but nothing about when it goes negative, just wondering what the effects of this are and whether it'd be suitable?

[matt tomlinson]

from my experience on my first bike (a 2004 brisa with a -15 bb) the bike will be more stable on two wheels. rear wheel moves will be harder and require a different posture to stay on the rear wheel than a newer frame. that being said if you were into bmx the lower bottom bracket will probably give the bike a more "streety" feel especially compared to newer bikes, my brisa manuals and j-hops like a dream compared to my raven.

if i were you and i was on a fixed budget and wanted to get into trials as soon as possible i would buy this bike, it will probably be great to learn on especially if you have other people to ride with. the bike will probably no doubt teach you the basics and show you if you like the sport or not. or at least thats what my brisa did for me. if you feel like you need to upgrade after that you can.

it would be nice to know the make and model of the bike though and possibly what part spec it has to see if you are actually getting a deal or not though. i am sure the fellow riders here will also help you out.

[MK999]

It's a 2001 Mission Reefer, which appears to have all standard parts. Seems it's main advantage is lightweight and decent strength frame so seems perfect to start on, main down point being the brakes, which Im not too worried about as if it's something I get into they can be transferred onto another bike easily enough, I still love the look of the inspired fourplay but with 10x + the price tag it'll definitely be a later upgrade if anything! Brakes seem to be a very personal thing anyway so no doubt I'll develop a certain preference.

[matt tomlinson]

honestly i have never heard of that bike or that company. but it looks pretty solid and all of the reviews check out. i guess my advice would be go for it.

[MK999]

honestly i have never heard of that bike or that company. but it looks pretty solid and all of the reviews check out. i guess my advice would be go for it.

Found a couple of posts on here from people having it as a first bike, seems they swapped up fairly soon but it at least looks ridable. It being unknown isn't a bad thing, makes it cheap

[MK999]

Well I am now the owner of This. I hope anyway, assuming the seller doesn't disappear when I ask when I can pick it up Not bad for £50!

Now to work out the best way of improving the brakes... Have had a look around the forum and don't really fancy the hassle/cost of HS33's/hydraulic not to mention that it seems most people that have tried V brakes actually prefer them, one thing I couldn't see much info on was discs? Other than it seems they don't feel right on the back, why is that? Although it appears to me that bike has the mountings on the front for a disc brake, but not on the rear anyway.

I assume I'd need to build new wheels if I did go discs front and rear, and since I started by looking at an inspired fourplay, it makes me wonder what the deal would be with changing to 24" rims with fr/rear discs?

[isitafox]

1st thing to mention is discs front and rear on a 26" isnt very good, the front is fine but a rear doesn't tend to hold well enough. I wouldn't dismiss maguras that quickly if I were you, maybe get a decent v setup on the front and a new hs11 from tartybikes for the rear, grind the rear wheel and get some decent pads. That should be a good enough starting point for you but I think you may struggle with a few bits on that bike, maybe pick up a 2nd hand frame off here to swap everything onto when you feel a bit more confident.

[MK999]

Cheers for the info, reason for not wanting Magura HSxx (I didn't realise there was anything around bar 33's until just now ) was from the hydraulic vs vee's thread (stickied in the main forum somewhere) it seemed that most that had tried both setups preferred the vee's, and with them being cheaper and easier to maintain as well it seemed like an obvious choice. Characteristic wise from what I can tell they seem to bite reasonably well but hold better compared to hydraulics from what people have said there. Discs seem popular but I haven't found any information on their characteristics, I assume from what you've said braking requirements for the rear are higher than the front for some reason? It does make sense mechanically that rim brakes would be more effective.

Main thing at the moment is a very very low budget, I'm selling my bmx to fund this so it leaves about £50 to spend on the bike after buying, meaning 2nd hand parts wherever possible and cheap is good! Realise this restricts me quite a bit for now but a lot of the simpler stuff can be learnt on any bike, so you can view it as a restriction, or you can view it as a lot more freedom than nothing at all If I found the money for it an inspired fourplay is still very much a possibility later on, and spending on parts that can be carried onto a fourplay frame is probably the most painless way to get there money wise!

With that in mind, mechanical discs seem to go cheap on ebay, as well as vee's, however it has been said that the actual vee mechanisms are relatively unimportant, and pads/grind are the key. So I was planning either discs, or buying good pads for the current vee's/possibly upgrading if the ones on the bike are decent. Hydraulic is a possibility if it comes up cheap I guess, but it seems it rarely does?

Bearing in mind that I'm also quite light (10-11st?) so I don't need the absolute very best could throw a 25st man over the bars braking, and the budget involved, whats the best way forward, good vee's on front and a 2nd hand hydraulic setup (like the HS11 suggested) within £50? or would I be more likely to get good vee's both ends for that, or a disc for the front maybe?

[isitafox]

To be honest the mechanicals in v's make a big difference to the performance, you'll pick up a front disc setup on here for £30+ and a rear magura for anything from £20+ so it's definitely affordable. All depends on if your front hub is disc ready.

[MK999]

Magura's I've seen have been a lot more expensive than that, so that may well be cheaper option overall, depending if they have good pads etc. I don't think they front hub is disc ready, the forks definitely have the mount for them but from what I can tell it's all standard parts and they don't appear to have disc hubs as standard. Looking at hubs/full wheels it looks like building a wheel with a disc hub would be more expensive than the bike in the first place! I'll have a hunt for some magura bits see what turns up, and maybe look at the price of good vee setups. Thanks for the pointer

Also I'm sure there's one somewhere, but I can't seem to find a guide to grinding rims?

[Ali C]

It may also be worth taking off the mech, shifters and cassette. This will save a ton of weight and have less chance of the chain jumping off. you would need a tensioner though (you could turn the mech indo a heavy version) and you would need to take a cog from the cassette that you want to use and some spacers to take up the space of the other cogs. You could buy a specific spacers kit (£10) or you could take the small spacers out from between the cogs on the cassette and use those (you would need at least two cassetes to get enough spacers thoigh, check your local bike shop, they replaces them all the time and would happily give you an old worn out cassette).

As for brakes, rear disks do have the power, but the length of the spokes means they have a slight flex which takes away the feel of precision when on the rear wheel. What mounts does the frame have? (I can't tell from the picture). If it has dedicated Magura mounts, it will be cheaper to stick with Maguras. If it has vee mounts with an adaptor for Maguras, I would use vees (I am a big fan of vee brakes). As mentioned, pads and a grind makes a huge difference to the power too.

Don't be afraid to experiment with different bar and lever positions, or maybe different stem and bars all together, they change the feel of the bike massivly.

[MK999]

It may also be worth taking off the mech, shifters and cassette. This will save a ton of weight and have less chance of the chain jumping off. you would need a tensioner though (you could turn the mech indo a heavy version) and you would need to take a cog from the cassette that you want to use and some spacers to take up the space of the other cogs. You could buy a specific spacers kit (£10) or you could take the small spacers out from between the cogs on the cassette and use those (you would need at least two cassetes to get enough spacers thoigh, check your local bike shop, they replaces them all the time and would happily give you an old worn out cassette).

As for brakes, rear disks do have the power, but the length of the spokes means they have a slight flex which takes away the feel of precision when on the rear wheel. What mounts does the frame have? (I can't tell from the picture). If it has dedicated Magura mounts, it will be cheaper to stick with Maguras. If it has vee mounts with an adaptor for Maguras, I would use vees (I am a big fan of vee brakes). As mentioned, pads and a grind makes a huge difference to the power too.

Don't be afraid to experiment with different bar and lever positions, or maybe different stem and bars all together, they change the feel of the bike massivly.

I was also looking at single speed conversions, may also use this for commuting and as an exercise thing with a mate (he rides a hybrid commuter) so I'm not sure if I could get along with one gear for both of those things, I imagine trials relies on a good sharp acceleration gear for pedal kicks etc and obviously commuting or trying to keep up with a hybrid, the opposite, it's definitely something I will try though when I get the bike, and see if there's a one gear fits all ratio.

I'm not sure on the mounts, being a 2001 bike is that before magura's were popular? the full bike used to retail around 3-400 from what I've seen so I'd be surprised.

Found this: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/skaforever/flash%20star/CRIM0059.jpg on a google image search, thats with magura HS33's front and back, and it seems to have something between the frame and the brakes which could well be an adapter? Appears to be the same year as mine too as from what I've found on the net the welded gussets on the back were added in 01. Found no evidence of them being made in anything other than '00 '01.

[davidbarr]

I was also looking at single speed conversions, may also use this for commuting and as an exercise thing with a mate (he rides a hybrid commuter) so I'm not sure if I could get along with one gear for both of those things, I imagine trials relies on a good sharp acceleration gear for pedal kicks etc and obviously commuting or trying to keep up with a hybrid, the opposite, it's definitely something I will try though when I get the bike, and see if there's a one gear fits all ratio.

I'm not sure on the mounts, being a 2001 bike is that before magura's were popular? the full bike used to retail around 3-400 from what I've seen so I'd be surprised.

Found this: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/skaforever/flash%20star/CRIM0059.jpg on a google image search, thats with magura HS33's front and back, and it seems to have something between the frame and the brakes which could well be an adapter? Appears to be the same year as mine too as from what I've found on the net the welded gussets on the back were added in 01. Found no evidence of them being made in anything other than '00 '01.

On that picture, it looks like there are magura mounts on the back and front.

Edited November 24, 2010 by davidbarr

[MK999]

Cool, so maguras will fit straight on? Whats between the brakes and the frame then? Are they just bulky things? I was moderately into bikes when I was younger and we thought saracens were cool as, and then about a year ago but details/tech im pretty shaky on.

[6ft-midget]

It actually looks like it has 4-bolt mounts on the rear and with v-brake mounts on the forks. Though that is going by the picture from Photobucket, I can't really see the brake mounts on the Ebay picture.

On the photobucket picture the front Magura is attached using an Evo-mount on v-brake bosses.

[AdamR28]

From the Photobucket image, it looks like all sorts of fail is going on with the rear brake, so ignore that

The bike on eBay (nice work by the way, that's a bargain!) has 4-bolt mounts front and rear, so hydraulic rim brakes will bolt straight on with 4-bolt clamps (everything here except the Evo2 adaptors: http://tartybikes.co.uk/search.php?category_id=74).

They have managed to fit V brakes to the bike you just bought via some pretty sketchy V brake adaptors (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14718&stc=1&d=1156682985) which are the same as the ones uses on the rear of that Photobucket image (which also has Evo2 mounts bolted to the v-brake adaptors!)...

Hope that isn't too confusing!?

Adam

[MK999]

It actually looks like it has 4-bolt mounts on the rear and with v-brake mounts on the forks. Though that is going by the picture from Photobucket, I can't really see the brake mounts on the Ebay picture.

On the photobucket picture the front Magura is attached using an Evo-mount on v-brake bosses.

Just found a spec for it; http://www.hellopro.co.uk/MISSION_CYCLES-8452-noprofil-2006961-44827-0-1-1-fr-societe.html. And it says "Magura Mounts" I.e plural, so it seems it has them front and rear from that? Although it says that in the bullet point for the frame. At least has them for the rear though.

Right, didn't see your reply Adam til just now, so basically it was sold with some v brakes on it to keep the retail cheap but had magura mounts for what was I assume, the normal choice for a proper trials rider at the time? No idea whats going on with the clamps to be honest, I'm sure it will become more clear after I look at some pictures of them mounted up have the bike in front of me

Edit: I'm understanding the clamps now, maguras are just cylinders that are bolted to the frame via those clamps... Quite an agricultural design really!

Edited November 24, 2010 by MK999

[AdamR28]

basically it was sold with some v brakes on it to keep the retail cheap but had magura mounts for what was I assume, the normal choice for a proper trials rider at the time?

Quite an agricultural design really!

Exactly! Since the brakes are manufactured in Germany (rather than the far East), it's super expensive to buy them, ship them separately to Taiwan for assembly on the bike, then have the lot shipped back over here... so on budget bikes like the Mission, even with extra V brake adaptors it makes a lot of sense to use Vees to keep costs down. Vees can work really well when set up correctly, but you would need different adaptors, boosters, new pads, blah blah, so a set of hydraulic brakes is a good bet (especially given the range of spares available).

Yeah, very simple but very effective, you just have to be *reasonably* careful with bolt torque since the thread is M5 and can pull out if you go nuts with the allen keys.

[MK999]

I guess my comment about the agricultural design comes from background, I'm studying motorsport engineering at uni, and have always had a competitive mind, I'm sure they're very effective, but there could certainly be improvements seen from casting or even machining from billet, the entire setup including the clamps and the brake booster into one unit to drop any chance of misalignment/lower flex. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" doesn't apply to motorsport Just how my mind works I guess

Are there recommended torque ratings given, or do they depend on the frame/mounts/calipers used? Or is it just a case of dont jump on the ratchet and you'll be ok?

Looking around for a cheap hydraulic setup atm but it seems people on ebay love them and they sell very very well (aka high)

[isitafox]

You've just gotta try not to go too mad when tightening them up. Keep your eye on the for sale section on here for maguras for the best deals! I've bought 2 hope trial disc brakes and a magura on here for well under £100!

[MK999]

Little info required on the magura's... Found a few on ebay/here, massive variations in price some going for £50 each, some £15, or £25-30 a set, main difference seems to be the older ones don't have the tpa adjuster? Which appear to be the HS11, HS33 are with? I guess the main question is what do you do as pads wear with the HS11/non adjusting, does it need re setting a lot?

[isitafox]

What you want is a hs33, preferably with a 4 finger lever. You should probably avoid eBay as they tend to go for quite a lot on there, and don't worry about pre 05 and newer style levers, they'll all do the job fine!

[MK999]

and am I correct in thinking the HS11 is without the adjustment, and HS33 with?

[isitafox]

They still have the adjuster but it hasn't got a quick adjust dial like the 33's. You have to do it with an Allen key, at least that's what my old 11's were like!

[MK999]

Ah ok, that's not so bad then really, I think I could live with that, especially since people seem to have problems with the quick adjust feature! I'd say either will do Unfortunately heard nothing back from the ebay seller at the moment Hoping they don't decide to do a runner because they were expecting more for the bike!