24 'pure Trials' Bikes In Comps. And Trials In General.

[Matt Vandart]

I have decided that 24" bike is the way for me. After having a quick go on a very nicely set up one the decision was easy.

I have been searching for a bike that fits, just right, for ages now and could not find one that when you get on you just know it's right. I got close with a ZHI Z3R and an echo control but it wasn't quite right.

I am aware of ways to make a bike fit such as changing the stem etc. but have been there and done that and it just doesn't seem to work.

Don't get me wrong I am loving my ashton at the moment (which is weird because it's a barge) its just this bike just seemed to fit even with the brakes the wrong way round for me.

People that have had a bike that fits like this will know what I am on about.

My favorite bikes have been a long mod and a short stock, with neither being quite right I have always thought that 24 must be where its at.

I am 5'6 normal proportions and weigh 11st so I am a pretty average person IMO leaning towards the short side obviously.

I believe that a 24" pure trials bikes are an excellent product for learners. Pretty much everyone says mod is easier to learn on than stock and I would tend to agree myself. My personal opinion is that the 24 I had a go on felt like a big mod with the advantage of being able to roll over stuff much more. Other opinions collected on the day thought it felt like a small Stock with the flickability and hoppyness of a mod and how fun it was to ride.

Either way it seems to be inbetween the two as one would think.

This in my eyes makes it the perfect bike for a beginner, learning would be accelerated, which would boost the learners confidence and reduce the number of riders that give up too easily when they realize that trials takes alot of practice with slow results.

One thing I have noticed is that the few females that ride trials seem to tend towards mod bikes, maybe because of weight or height, I'm not sure, maybe some of the birds that ride on here could enlighten us as to why.

Now I rekon 24 would be a good thing for getting girls into trials, my reasoning being MOD bikes just look funny, it's a fact and it takes a very rare type of girl to not worry about riding a funny looking bike, 24 doesn't look as weird even without a seat and seeing as girls tend to be shorter and weigh less (well the active ones anyway) than blokes, 24" seems logical to me.

This isn't about getting more girls into trials so that we can all perv at them by the way, there is a whole other potential market out there just waiting to be shown that they can do trials too, just like what happened when the mountain biking market finally realized they were out there waiting.

Such a boost in numbers can be nothing but a good thing for trials riding in general such as:

The obvious point of there being more riders (and therefore).

More money input to manufacturers meaning a more stable market and as a result better continuity in supply.

More money input to manufacturers so they have more money to develop new/better products.

More money input to manufacturers means that the chances of people actually making trials riding into a career being greater.

More numbers means trials will be taken more seriously and therefore receive more funding.

Those are some of my opinions on the 24" 'pure trials' product I was wondering what other people thought about these points and maybe a get a discussion going about:

The need for a 24" pure trials frame that is affordable (I am aware of the because, didn't that sell out pretty quick at tarty?)

Where it sits within the whole picture of trials.

Opinions from people that have/do ride 24" 'Pure trials"

What IS ACTUALLY going down with riding 24" in competition.

What people think should happen with 24" in competition, where it should sit, in 20" in 26" in its own 24" category.

Why are there even 2 categories in the first place?

Feel free to discuss below.

Please note I am talking about 24" 'pure trials' products aimed at natty/tgs riders such as Kabra, tractor, because 24' not inspired street style 24's which have already carved out their place.

[Azarathal]

I read a fair amount of this before loosing interest. I can however say a very well done for this, it must of taken quite a bit of time and has some interesting points.

[Matt Vandart]

LOL, I didnt realise it was so long till I just clicked on it, sorry about that

[Revolver]

I think I understand about this bikes fitting you thing... it's maybe why I won't go through with swapping to a stock, it's just not quite right.

The because sold out on tartybikes originally because they only got a couple in, I think.

Sadly I was one of the second round of people to get one.

In competitions I've heard of 24"s being allowed now. I think they make 20" and 26" riders ride the same route now which leaves an opening for 24" riders there, but I don't know as far as results go.

I am looking forwards to seeing more people's opinions on this.

If Onza could only make their TGS 24" bike, they'd be right in there in the market, where there's a stonking gap waiting for someone to fill it.

You could make a cheap one that's the same as where the hitman comes in, with vee brakes, and a sick one, and that'd be great!

[Mark W]

Now I rekon 24 would be a good thing for getting girls into trials, my reasoning being MOD bikes just look funny, it's a fact and it takes a very rare type of girl to not worry about riding a funny looking bike, 24 doesn't look as weird even without a seat and seeing as girls tend to be shorter and weigh less (well the active ones anyway) than blokes, 24" seems logical to me.

Seems like most girls who ride trials tend to ride comps, where mod's more of a 'normal' thing? They'll still also be lighter and more agile, so they'll still be a more popular option I reckon.

...More money input to manufacturers so they have more money to develop new/better products...

We'll see - hopefully manufacturers will put more effort into development.

The need for a 24" pure trials frame that is affordable (I am aware of the because, didn't that sell out pretty quick at tarty?)

It did indeed - we've had quite a lot of them come and go now, and the Because 24" Trial full build we did has been really, really popular too, all over the world. Sold more of the full builds outside of the UK than in the UK, which is cool.

What IS ACTUALLY going down with riding 24" in competition.

From what Ben said at the Gavin Bedford memorial ride, there was a UCI Meeting that - by now - took place to try and decide it. It seems they made them comp legal last year, but didn't specify routes or anything so when Ben got 2nd on his at the Nationals and there was a complaint, the use of 24" bikes was sort of suspended. Hopefully they'll have cleared it up by next season. I'm pretty sure there are a good few people interested in switching over, but the ambiguity is making them hold off. I know we had a customer who'd bought loads of 24" bits then ended up returning them after the first round because they found they wouldn't be able to use them.

Why are there even 2 categories in the first place?

Mods are better at some things than stocks, and vice versa. It sort of makes sense to balance it out by having them competing against each other on sections that are sort of designed for them, in a sense. In much the same way that comps are supposed to have a mix of left foot forward and right foot forward moves but are often more biased towards one rather than the other, it wouldn't really be fair to have them directly competing. Riding the same sections as each other is fine, but actively competing against riders on different sized bikes makes it more difficult to really judge. Should be interesting if everything gets lumped in together, and there's no "Elite 20/Elite 26", just "Elite"...

The because sold out on tartybikes originally because they only got a couple in, I think.

We did indeed, but as I said up there we've subsequently sold quite a few in various guise. They've been surprisingly popular

[indianatrials]

I agree with you 100% Matt. I couldnt of said it any better my self. Im really happy to see that Damon Watson is doing 24" and that ozonys is making a frame. I also cant wait for the onza limey 24" To come out (although im overly satisfied with my because TGS frame). I think and hope that 24" is the way of the future, because it really is the ultimatum of wheel sizes. Anyone that thinks 24" bikes are only if you want to ride like macaskill needs to get a life.

Edited November 15, 2010 by indianatrials

[Matt Vandart]

We did indeed, but as I said up there we've subsequently sold quite a few in various guise. They've been surprisingly popular

It's good to hear that they are selling reasonably well, don't want to see the choice disappear.

If they ride anything like The Kabra then I am not surprised at all

@ Reveolver- I also can't wait to see ONZA's offering in this sector if it's as good as their recent pro series frames it's gonna be pure win (disc brake disc brake disc brake, lol)

On the point of disc brakes, it seems to me a bit of a puzzle as to why the Kabra and the tractor havn't got disc mounts. I know the dude that made the Kabra said it was because of the cost to develop a reliable mount.

In my experience disc brakes work much better on 24 than 26 which actually amazes me as it's only 2" difference.

If someone can explain that to me I would be very pleased.

Any non 24 advocates want to express an opinion?

[Mark W]

If they're well thought out, a disc mount shouldn't really be much of a problem. They'd need to be a +20 mount though IMO. I think the main thing with the rim brake models so far is that frames like the Tractor are made to be super light, and to get a super light setup on a bike like that most people are going to want to run a rim brake. I'd imagine a disc would feel better on a 24 than a stock, but still not as good on a 24 as on a mod (confusing wording ahoy). I was very tempted to set up a Because as the Because Trial build we did felt really nice, and if I did I think I'd definitely slap a HS33 on it even though on my mod I ran a Hope.

I think once a few more cheaper models appear the more expensive Tractor and Kabra frames will have more of a chance of becoming popular. I think there needs to be a basis for the market before people are willing to spend a lot of money on a frame, so without there being much of a proven track record for 24" 'pure' trials frames I don't see the high end stuff changing massively. Having said that, we've sold a good few Tractor frames to guys over in Japan and some other far afield places, so maybe elsewhere they're more popular than in the UK.

I know the dude that made the Kabra said it was because of the cost to develop a reliable mount.

Bearing in mind how expensive the Kabra frame is already, I'd imagine having to up costs further with a disc mount on there would probably also put them off...

[Revolver]

On the subject of routes for mod and stock... if they combined the routes, then it would make choosing which bike you rode a tactical choice, possibly.

Mind you, you are still ranked in terms of mod and stock, so

[craigjames]

The Onza frame has a disc mount, unfortunately its in the ISO position which isn't ideal, the chainstays were a little long and the BB a little low; apart from this it rides really nicely. I'm not really sure what Joe is intending on doing with it at the moment, I think Joe Seddon told him it wasn't really viable at the time due to the competition side of things.

[Matt Vandart]

I would have said the market was currently outside the competition scene for obvious reasons, also there are more trials riders that don't compete than do to make it not viable.

It's how much of that market that take to 24 TGS/Pure trials that would make or break it.

Not knocking Joe's (Seddon) opinion just pointing out what I think about viability of the product.

[Mark W]

I would have said the market was currently outside the competition scene for obvious reasons, also there are more trials riders that don't compete than do to make it not viable.

However, comp riders still tend to be more keen on buying new parts/bikes compared to street riders, it seems. I think a lot of street riders tend to go 2nd hand for frames, whereas it seems like more often than not comp/natural riders go for buying new parts.

[Matt Vandart]

New as in literally BNIB or new as in innovative?

[Mark W]

'BNIB'.

[craigjames]

I think that's the thing, 20" and 26" trials is established in both street and competition trials whereas 24" isn't; I know this is primarily due to the lack of availability but as there has been no clear adoption/inclusion of the wheel size for UCI or BIU rules it's a chunk of your potential market gone simply for that reason. It's a big jump to make for a company and I don't think that the jump will be made until the competition rules side of things is clarified. I've got to agree with Mark too, the majority of street riders don't tend to splash out big money on new frames, from what Joe has told me I would gather that the majority of their frame sales comes from the competition side of the market.

The other issue i'm finding is that there isn't a massive availability of decent parts for the 24" TGS scene. I have £50 Schwalbe tyre waiting for the Echo TR rear rims to come back in stock so I can at least build up a decent wheel to compliment the light frame.

However, comp riders still tend to be more keen on buying new parts/bikes compared to street riders, it seems. I think a lot of street riders tend to go 2nd hand for frames, whereas it seems like more often than not comp/natural riders go for buying new parts.

New as in literally BNIB or new as in innovative?

Brand New In Box Mark.

I would say both innovative and new.

[Matt Vandart]

Interesting so far, What u got to say Ali?

Edit: Damn he's gone......with nothing to say

Edited November 15, 2010 by Matt Vandart

[Mark W]

Brand New In Box Mark.

I know? That's why I said that it was BNIB, in that I said STREET riders go 2nd hand, whereas comp riders go for new (or BNIB) products.

[craigjames]

I know? That's why I said that it was BNIB, in that I said STREET riders go 2nd hand, whereas comp riders go for new (or BNIB) products.

My bad, thought you were questioning it.

[Matt Vandart]

Any comp riders want to express their views?

[Ali C]

narr

[Greetings]

I find it annoying how the 24" bikes are having to undergo the same evolutionary process as a mod and a stock have through the last 10 years. Why does every frame have to start off with a seat, then get lower and lower until after a few years it looses the seat altogether and starts looking like a trials frame.

You'll see, in 2011 or 2012 there will be an outburst of 24" trials frames which could have been released many years ago when the idea was first introduced.

At the moment there is very little choice, pretty much the only way to get what you want is order a custom frame from Marino or Triton.

[Matt Vandart]

narr

Not even some negative input?

Edited November 16, 2010 by Matt Vandart

[SamKidney]

i think the 24 market has some decent options and part selections out there now. Namely echo urban 24 fork, trialtech 24 rims, all good 135 spaced hubs, high rise bars ect. I think 24 TGS is a market that could make massive money for manufacturers. I think id like to see the number of pure trials frames increase. Eg low frames, high bb, options for long, short, low bb ect

Edited November 16, 2010 by Echo Lite 09

[Mark W]

At the moment there is very little choice, pretty much the only way to get what you want is order a custom frame from Marino or Triton.

Because Trial 24", Kabra F-24, Rockman Tractor, Ozonys Unruly, TMS TGS (can't remember what it's called, but they missed a trick with that one ) - they hit most of the same price points as 'normal' frames, and offer a pretty wide choice of options.

[Andrew C]

I really wish that there was a light trial specific 24" tyre out there

Or is there?