Matt Vandart Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 The problem as I see it is that all ideas must come from somewhere. I think I have confused myself. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aener Posted October 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 The problem as I see it is that all ideas must come from somewhere. I think I have confused myself. lol Same... Haha. I started out thinking one thing, but now I'm arguing the opposite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 Same... Haha. I started out thinking one thing, but now I'm arguing the opposite LMAO!!Ok someone explain the difference between instinct and reflex for me please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 The problem as I see it is that all ideas must come from somewhere. I think I have confused myself. lol Hehe. I agree, ideas must come from somewhere but for things like gravity I think they come from observation. Anything that is truely an instinct however is not based in an idea, it just 'is'. You don't have to think 'I'm going to try not to get killed today' you just due it instinctively (bad example I know but you get the idea). Similarly I doubt any parent consciously has to think 'I'm going to protect my child from that pitbull terrier' they just act and would be willing to sacrifice themselves for the conservation of their young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuel Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 Don't 100% agree with that, purely on the survival 'instinct' or fight or flight. Animals have instincts- I wouldn't consider a baby rabbit to be applying its previous knowledge of vehicles when it finds itself caught in headlights- it is acting purely on instincts in an attempt to survive. I daresay procreation is probably fairly instinctive too... but the fight or flight instinct is surely based on whether or not you/animal think you can beat the crap out of your opponent. Things you work out from past experience/knowledge ? The rabbit in headlights - I dont think that is instinct - as I think they are paralyzed by fear, and a car isnt really a natural predator to a rabbit ! maybe that works in some scenarios in the wild? I guess then the only real instinct is "stay alive" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisboats Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 So then, if observing something is being taught, is learning in itself, instinctual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aener Posted October 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 Ok someone explain the difference between instinct and reflex for me please. How are you editing your posts without the thing at the bottom coming up? That's twice I've read a post, left the thread and come back to find an extra bit. Instinct is something you do without thinking. A reflex is an action your body takes without even asking the brain. You can choose not to act on an instinct, whereas you cannot stop a reflex action (unless you try REALLY REALLY hard... like keeping your hand in a fire until you start burning. A reflex is to pull your hand off something hot before you get damaged) Fear is an instinct, I suppose. Flinching from an incoming fist is a reflex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 (edited) This is what Wiki has to say on the subject: To be considered instinctual a behavior must a) be automatic, be irresistible, c) occur at some point in development, d) be triggered by some event in the environment, e) occur in every member of the species, f) be unmodifiable, and g) govern behavior for which the organism needs no training (although the organism may profit from experience and to that degree the behavior is modifiable). The absence of one or more of these criteria indicates that the behavior is not fully instinctual. Instincts do exist in insects and animals as can be seen in behaviors that cannot be changed by learning. Psychologists do recognize that humans do have biological predispositions or behaviors that are easy to learn due to biological wiring, for example walking and talking. I am no clearer for it. I have to add that I am currently chatting up a bird with big boobs on facebook which is distracting me a bit. Edited October 11, 2010 by Matt Vandart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 but the fight or flight instinct is surely based on whether or not you/animal think you can beat the crap out of your opponent. Things you work out from past experience/knowledge ? But that's taking it to the next stage. The instinct is there and your brain then decides which way to act (as you say) depending on the odds of survival/success but the initial instinct was immediately there. Kinda. Yeah, I agree with the rabbit thing, bad example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aener Posted October 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 So then, if observing something is being taught, is learning in itself, instinctual? I hate to do this, but yes damnit - of course it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisboats Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 Instinct is something you do without thinking. A reflex is an action your body takes without even asking the brain. They're the same explanation with different wording. I hate to do this, but yes damnit - of course it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 Is it not biological predisposition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aener Posted October 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 They're the same explanation with different wording. Hence the further explanation. I couldn't think how to word it. I'm beginning to think I should've used the word "intuition" (or even "hunch", for f**k's sake ) in my first post, rather than "instinct" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisboats Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 I guess then the only real instinct is "stay alive" Wouldn't eating, self preservation and sex all be instinctual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 I would say so but so is the fact that baby turtles head for the sea apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krisboats Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 I would say so but so is the fact that baby turtles head for the sea apparently. Wouldn't that fall under self preservation? They're pretty exposed on the sand. Mind you, knowing the sea is safer has got to be instinctual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 I would say so but so is the fact that baby turtles head for the sea apparently. If I was being attacked by a flock of nasty b*****d vulture things I would too . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuel Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 Im pretty sure "stay alive" covers self preservation and eating. I would agree, sex is something different though, although staying alive could cover passing on your genes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 I'm a great believer in 'Inherited knowledge' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aener Posted October 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 (edited) Im pretty sure "stay alive" covers self preservation and eating. I would agree, sex is something different though, although staying alive could cover passing on your genes... Staying alive through your [descendant's] blood? Damn... I knew someone would turn it religious. I think "preservation of the species" is a catch-all. Preserving yourself allows you to procreate more in the future, so self-preservation is included. I guess this makes homosexuality a defect among the species... Maybe some sort of psychological problem? If you're not interested in the opposite sex, you won't have procreational sex, meaning you're holding the species back. Haha. But then again... We're such a plentiful species, it could be argued we've evolved OUT of the need to procreate, which opens us out to offspring-less relations. Edited October 11, 2010 by aener Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Quinn Posted October 11, 2010 Report Share Posted October 11, 2010 So would you lot say we can be born with a fear (such as of snakes for example), or dyou reckon everything like that's through passive learning? I personally think a general fear of the unknown is instinctual and programmed into us (cue: instinctual racism argument), but I guess that kind of comes under the whole 'self preservation' one in the way that it would be erring on the side of caution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Fel Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 I've had thoughts like this recently. I've been thinking the brain predicts things before they happen, that's one of its main jobs. You don't really do a lot of things that you're not sure of the outcome. If I throw a ball I've got a good idea of how its going to react when it hits something. The thing is I could imagine loads of things in my head and they will work in my head but not when I try to do them. Then there's other things I'd think of that would work perfectly. Imagine a huge tank of water with an open top and a hose at the bottom. I can imagine the water forcing down and water coming out the hose (that would happen) but I can also imagine bringing the hose up to the top of the tank and refilling it (that wouldn't happen) I've never actually done this but I know it wouldn't work. This is where I get onto dreams. I think dreaming is a good way for your brain to practice predicting things. I've had dreams of things I can't/haven't been able to do (the manual dream) but its felt so real in a dream and when I've eventually done it its felt identical. Another example is sex. I'd dreamt about sex before I had and I have to say it felt almost identical. I might be waffling on a bit here and I'm awful at getting my point across into words. The God bit; Did anyone see Steven Hawking's Universe? It basically explained how the universe began and what has happened since. Basically there was a big bang a shit load of matter and anti matter came out once the anti matter did its thing we ended up with a shit load of hydrogen molecules which started gathering together increasing in size therefore having more of a gravitation pull crushing everything on the inside till some of it fused together creating other elements and exploding spreading them around. This happened for the next few billion years then we ended up knocking about with the ability to talk shit. So basically everything we are made up of was once part of a star (An amazing prospect to think about) It made perfect sense to me and I think anyone that just thinks God magicked it into existence is a retard. The same with evolution I can imagine it all happening from Abiogenesis to gradual mutations,again, people that can't imagine that happening are tards in my opinion. Another thing Hawking talked about was time travel. You can't actually travel in time but you can slow its effects down effectively travelling forward in time (that's not what he said but that's what I took from it). Time for me doesn't exist. All it is is a measurement of the earth travelling around the sun and spinning on its axis. If you took every molecule in the universe and rearranged it all back to the exact place as it was in the 1950's effectively you've travelled back in time (only you wont have because all the molecules that make you up will be spread around) This among other things makes it impossible. If you're in a spaceship travelling at the speed of light and you walk to the front of it effectively you would be travelling faster than light (that's where time would slow down for you) people back on earth would get older than you quicker. I've lost the plot a bit with this post but I'm glad I got it all out. I hope it makes some sense to some people and I hope I've come up with a few ideas that get you thinking. If someone could go over my post and correct the grammar I'd really appreciate that because I'm crap at using commas etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 STUFF Another thing Hawking talked about was time travel. You can't actually travel in time but you can slow its effects down effectively travelling forward in time (that's not what he said but that's what I took from it). Time for me doesn't exist. All it is is a measurement of the earth travelling around the sun and spinning on its axis. If you took every molecule in the universe and rearranged it all back to the exact place as it was in the 1950's effectively you've travelled back in time (only you wont have because all the molecules that make you up will be spread around) This among other things makes it impossible. If you're in a spaceship travelling at the speed of light and you walk to the front of it effectively you would be travelling faster than light (that's where time would slow down for you) people back on earth would get older than you quicker. OTHER STUFF I wholeheartedly agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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