Koxx Frames

[Matt Vandart]

Just for clarity too, you're obviously paying for the Koxx name in just the same way that you do with Monty, but the quality of Koxx frames is massively, massively better than Monty frames...

Agreed with that too.

But Koxx is way up there in terms of price.

Monty frame- about £600

I am not slagging Koxx or retailers that sell them just curious as to what would make someone pay £849 for a bicycle frame with very little to it really.

I agree they are not as much of a rip as monty frames as Mark has highlighted those frames are very far behind in terms of actual product design.

By the way just to fill in the gaps for some people I am well aware of material specifics especially so called 'exotics' the only real advances in the field of engineering I have been in for a very long time has been in the materials and as such it is essential that I have knowledge of such things although that is not to say I believe I am all knowing. I am also VERY aware of how this can be easily abused especially if a company has a monopoly on the material concerned. I regularly have fitted 16 (in number) items that cost a quarter of a million pounds which is all down to the material used in the manufacture.

[6ft-midget]

I've always considered those Monty dropouts to be horrific and cheap looking.

[Laurence--Trials]

So they can sell more of them?

Oh right, i thought there would be another reason besides that.

See your point on the koxx + monty situation

Two off topics again :$

Is that monty bashring in the picture any good/ available to buy anywhere or just comes with that bike?

and

back to the rockman's im thinking of a buying a maladie would you say its a comp frame?

[modifiedridah2k9]

Oh right, i thought there would be another reason besides that.

See your point on the koxx + monty situation

Two off topics again :$

Is that monty bashring in the picture any good/ available to buy anywhere or just comes with that bike?

and

back to the rockman's im thinking of a buying a maladie would you say its a comp frame?

I wouldnt say the maladie is for comps... if you have the money, go for the akali, that looks real nice!

[Mark W]

But Koxx is way up there in terms of price.

Monty frame- about £600

Again though, the 231 frame isn't anywhere close to the quality of the Sky frames, doesn't have the same detailed machining, doesn't have the same level of CNC'd parts, etc. - there's a reason it's cheaper. You should be thinking more about why the Monty frames cost £200+ more than Deng frames rather than why it's £200 less than Sky frames, pretty much as you said yourself:

I agree they are not as much of a rip as monty frames as Mark has highlighted those frames are very far behind in terms of actual product design.

I am not slagging Koxx or retailers that sell them just curious as to what would make someone pay £849 for a bicycle frame with very little to it really.

The same reason that people into car modding spend loads of money on little trick carbon fibre bits to make their cars lighter. The Sky frames are genuinely some of the best frames out there in terms of strength:weight, and in terms of their overall design. I've never been the biggest fan of K-124 in the past, but when we got the Sky bikes in for the first time it was genuinely a "" moment. In person, they're super nice. Definitely more of a wow factor and a 'niceness' to them than any other frame we stock. Whenever we send out a Black Sky or Orange Sky or whatever, everyone has a look at it before it goes out, whereas with other frames there just isn't really that. It's sort of hard to quantify without actually being there with a frame in front of you.

[Zoo!Man]

Because they arent making enough sales as the prices were so high? Just a guess, please correct me if wrong

So they can sell more of them?

I believe I read a few weeks ago in Tribalzine that Koxx had some several problems with bikes production/ distribution or dealers...

[Greetings]

Mark, even if the materials cost 4x more than the ones to make a Zhi or Echo frame for instance... well, you know.

Koxx spends a lot on publicity, events and R&D. As far as I know (could be wrong) they don't have their own factory. All of it including frames is outsourced which is why you can buy Try-All parts with Rockman written on them. Therefore their supply chain is a lot longer than with other manufacturers, Echo's probably being the shortest of them all for frames, forks and a few other parts. Basically the shorter the chain, the lower the costs. All this accounts for vast expenses which need to be paid for in one way or another. Plus, much of their activity is located in Europe which isn't the cheapest place either.

[PaRtZ]

I think the point Matt is trying to get at is not simply "why £850" more like "why £850 when 5 years ago it was £400?" I remember the XTP being the top of the line frame, and that was £500. Lots of competition winners won on the levelboss that was £400. Now it seems the manufacturers have realised at how competitive the market is to

• 
  a] Have your company name on a podium finish
  b] Charge high prices to spoilt kids who think the top of the range frame will make them good straight away
  c] How riders who are training hard to win will pay any sort of money to have an upper hand in a comp
  

Dont get me wrong, I love watching the comps and seeing how awesome the elite level riders are, but its just a shame that people would rather be the best at trials rather than have a decent old school laugh and not worrying about denting a frame if you fall off.

[Bronz]

Even disregarding material costs, manufacturing costs etc, what you have to remember is that Koxx is a business with a reputable image, and a desirable product. They can set their own pricing structure however they wish, the sheer quality of the frames further affects this.

This situation is akin to the whole Mac pricing that people seem to get irate about. People seem to think that Apple ‘owe’ the market an affordable Mac. Same with Koxx; their pricing structure is at their discretion. If you can't afford it, then don't bitch about it. Spend within your limits and don't think that a company's pricing policy owes you anything.

Post not aimed at any individuals.

[Mark W]

As far as I know (could be wrong) they don't have their own factory.

They don't.

All of it including frames is outsourced which is why you can buy Try-All parts with Rockman written on them.

That isn't the reason why that's the case, although it is partially responsible. Try-All have specced their own custom parts with manufacturers before and had custom tooling that no-one else has been allowed to use. Certain situations change though and that can't always be maintained, but I can't/won't really say much more than that on that particular subject.

Echo's probably being the shortest of them all for frames, forks and a few other parts.

All of Deng's products are made in house, as he has his own factory. Up until relatively recently some of their stuff was still out-sourced, but QC issues such as the problems they had with the batch of freewheels (THAT WERE NEVER RELEASED, before anyone starts saying they were) meant that they decided to make it all in-house. Currently, they're using all of their machines to make some brand new parts for 2011, so that should result in some cool new stuff they couldn't get made before.

Basically the shorter the chain, the lower the costs. All this accounts for vast expenses which need to be paid for in one way or another. Plus, much of their activity is located in Europe which isn't the cheapest place either.

Which is what I was trying to explain before

I remember the XTP being the top of the line frame, and that was £500. Lots of competition winners won on the levelboss that was £400. Now it seems the manufacturers have realised at how competitive the market is to

a] Have your company name on a podium finish

b] Charge high prices to spoilt kids who think the top of the range frame will make them good straight away

c] How riders who are training hard to win will pay any sort of money to have an upper hand in a comp

People won on the Levelboss frames, but if you put, say, Gilles in the Levelboss time period against Gilles in the current period, modern day Gilles would absolutely own. Trials has moved on massively since then, as has frame design. The XTP was a lot more than the Levelboss because there was, to overly simplify it, a lot going on with that frame, and again there's a lot more going on with the Sky frames than there is the XTP. Also, as I said before, material prices have gone up then significantly which has harmed retail prices. It's the same throughout the entire cycling industry though - same way that people ripped Shimano for the massive price increases over the past few years.

A lot of people who've bought the 26" Sky bikes or frames off us have just been people who want to have what they consider to be a really nice, high quality bike. It's the same way you get people who buy boutique shoes when they could just buy a £3 pair of plimsoles from Topman. There's the option there to buy the best possible product, and people go for that. You can point out that, say, the Zoo Piranha is a better value for money frame, but for some people that isn't really the issue. Again, it's just like people who spend a lot of money on luxury cars or high end sports cars.

Regarding the comp scene as well, if you were at the very top level of comps, fighting for a win at the Worlds and you found out that someone else was using tyres that were 300g lighter than your's and a frame that was 200g lighter than your's with a BB 50g lighter than your's and bars 20g lighter than your's, wouldn't you want them to give yourself the best chance of winning too?

Dont get me wrong, I love watching the comps and seeing how awesome the elite level riders are, but its just a shame that people would rather be the best at trials rather than have a decent old school laugh and not worrying about denting a frame if you fall off.

One of the good things about trials is that it's diverse enough that you can get dicks like me f**king around on a 24" bike without brakes all the way up to the top level UCI riders in the world all the way to people caving their chainstays in missing sidehops on street rides to people booting around on rocks in the middle of nowhere. There's still bikes and frames to suit the vast majority of people, and Koxx offering a top level bike for people who want to win competitions doesn't affect your ability to go out and have a fun ride in exactly the same way that Inspired offering a strong, well-built 24" bike doesn't stop Benito from being a mad human spring who can make a super-light comp bike do whatever he wants.

[Matt Vandart]

Again though, the 231 frame isn't anywhere close to the quality of the Sky frames, doesn't have the same detailed machining, doesn't have the same level of CNC'd parts, etc. - there's a reason it's cheaper. You should be thinking more about why the Monty frames cost £200+ more than Deng frames rather than why it's £200 less than Sky frames, pretty much as you said yourself:

The same reason that people into car modding spend loads of money on little trick carbon fibre bits to make their cars lighter. The Sky frames are genuinely some of the best frames out there in terms of strength:weight, and in terms of their overall design. I've never been the biggest fan of K-124 in the past, but when we got the Sky bikes in for the first time it was genuinely a "" moment. In person, they're super nice. Definitely more of a wow factor and a 'niceness' to them than any other frame we stock. Whenever we send out a Black Sky or Orange Sky or whatever, everyone has a look at it before it goes out, whereas with other frames there just isn't really that. It's sort of hard to quantify without actually being there with a frame in front of you.

I was just thinking things along those lines whilst sitting outside having a smoke and looking at my Bugatti (I wish).

I must say I have never seen one for really, they do look very nice even in photos which is what got me thinking about this in the first place.

'Who the f**k is buying them?'

I think the point Matt is trying to get at is not simply "why £850" more like "why £850 when 5 years ago it was £400?" I remember the XTP being the top of the line frame, and that was £500. Lots of competition winners won on the levelboss that was £400. Now it seems the manufacturers have realised at how competitive the market is to

a] Have your company name on a podium finish

b] Charge high prices to spoilt kids who think the top of the range frame will make them good straight away

c] How riders who are training hard to win will pay any sort of money to have an upper hand in a comp

Dont get me wrong, I love watching the comps and seeing how awesome the elite level riders are, but its just a shame that people would rather be the best at trials rather than have a decent old school laugh and not worrying about denting a frame if you fall off.

This.

Even disregarding material costs, manufacturing costs etc, what you have to remember is that Koxx is a business with a reputable image, and a desirable product. They can set their own pricing structure however they wish, the sheer quality of the frames further affects this.

This situation is akin to the whole Mac pricing that people seem to get irate about. People seem to think that Apple ‘owe’ the market an affordable Mac. Same with Koxx; their pricing structure is at their discretion. If you can't afford it, then don't bitch about it. Spend within your limits and don't think that a company's pricing policy owes you anything.

Post not aimed at any individuals.

Agreed.

Not bitching though just intrigued and also concerned Koxx will bury themselves, I like Try all parts.

[Muel]

Compare like with like, a 1.4kg Koxx Orange Sky 26" frame. I doubt you will ever find a frame that is stronger at that weight, or as well designed, well built or pretty.

[Mark W]

'Who the f**k is buying them?'

As I said above, a lot of different people. We get customers ranging from comp-Dads buying their kids a Silver Sky to go ride some Tyketrials through to people who just want to have something nice to look at in their garage. We once even sold a pair of Black Sky bikes to two dudes in Japan who ride together. We've even had one customer who bought one of the Sky frames simply because he wanted a frame that colour. You get a pretty big mix of people.

[Zoo!Man]

One of the good things about trials is that it's diverse enough that you can get dicks like me f**king around on a 24" bike without brakes all the way up to the top level UCI riders in the world all the way to people caving their chainstays in missing sidehops on street rides to people booting around on rocks in the middle of nowhere. There's still bikes and frames to suit the vast majority of people, and Koxx offering a top level bike for people who want to win competitions doesn't affect your ability to go out and have a fun ride in exactly the same way that Inspired offering a strong, well-built 24" bike doesn't stop Benito from being a mad human spring who can make a super-light comp bike do whatever he wants.

Bravo.

[ogre]

Compare like with like, a 1.4kg Koxx Orange Sky 26" frame. I doubt you will ever find a frame that is stronger at that weight, or as well designed, well built or pretty.

this.

[forteh]

Compare like with like, a 1.4kg Koxx Orange Sky 26" frame. I doubt you will ever find a frame that is stronger at that weight, or as well designed, well built or pretty.

A triton could be, bet it would last a lot longer aswell, however it would ride nothing like the sky because it would be like riding a noodle

If the R&D that koxx has ploughed into frame design was ploughed into triton (or koxx developed hydroformed titanium frames) we could be buying £1000 frames that are light, stiff and strong as hell; the cost would be astronomical but the frame really could be something special. The current triton design is very, very simple, none of this 5axis cnc machining, yet the frames can easily be made as light as most of the current crop of lightweights (bar the sky's) - image what could be achieved money no object!

Possibly a major bugbear with koxx is that they dont produce a cheaper option koxx branded frame (ignore the yaabaas), something that will take a beating but still have the same design/styling as the skys - the tooling is set up, all you need is plain gauge tubing instead of hydroformed and 6061 or whatever aluminium you please and you have a cheap koxx frame.

[Mark W]

Possibly a major bugbear with koxx is that they dont produce a cheaper option koxx branded frame (ignore the yaabaas), something that will take a beating but still have the same design/styling as the skys - the tooling is set up, all you need is plain gauge tubing instead of hydroformed and 6061 or whatever aluminium you please and you have a cheap koxx frame.

I'm genuinely not convinced that it would really work like that, in terms of either frame strength, whether it'd be something people would want to buy and whether they'd actually be any good. Equally, Koxx are essentially just a high end comp brand. Apologies for the constant car analogies, but you don't really see Koenigsegg making a cheap shitter purely so people can have their badge on their car? In terms of not wanting to dilute the brand, I think it makes more sense for Koxx to not really offer a watered down version of their frames, especially as opening up into that market offers a whole host of problems in terms of the abuse people give frames, having to deal with warranty claims, having to see people bad-mouthing your brand because they had Part X that broke in Y months, etc.

[forteh]

I'm genuinely not convinced that it would really work like that, in terms of either frame strength, whether it'd be something people would want to buy and whether they'd actually be any good. Equally, Koxx are essentially just a high end comp brand. Apologies for the constant car analogies, but you don't really see Koenigsegg making a cheap shitter purely so people can have their badge on their car? In terms of not wanting to dilute the brand, I think it makes more sense for Koxx to not really offer a watered down version of their frames, especially as opening up into that market offers a whole host of problems in terms of the abuse people give frames, having to deal with warranty claims, having to see people bad-mouthing your brand because they had Part X that broke in Y months, etc.

Perhaps it wouldnt, but look at the yaabaas (yeah its a cheap koxx but not branded as such), they were popular, strong and reasonably simple, yet where are they now? Maybe they have something in the pipeline but the last frame was the stinger that ali was prototyping what, 2 years ago? Ive only ever seen one stinger in the flesh aswell, kyles at beaus memorial ride a year ago. Maybe if the yaabaas were actively sold as the koxx equivalent of the nissan sunny then the skys could be the analogy of the pulsar

Not saying that is what koxx should do or whether its even a sensible idea, but I think the point that matt was trying to make is that currently koxx frames are unavailable to 80% of the trials riding community due to prices and potentially relatively short frame life. To be fair how many of the yaabaas were actually broken? They seemed like a nice simple, solid design without the fancy expensive tubes and machining - I believe they were very competitively priced. If you want a koxx to bash up walls then get one of the cheap ones, if you want a koxx that you can ride for 37 hours straight without a hint of arm pump get one of the expensive ones

[Mark W]

I think the point that matt was trying to make is that currently koxx frames are unavailable to 80% of the trials riding community

F1 cars are unavailable to 99.9% of the car driving community. MotoGP bikes are unavailable to 99.9% of the motorcycling community. Obviously manufacturers who operate in those areas do filter the technology down onto their production lines, but there's also millions (if not billions) more available in those industries. Developing the best comp bike in the world isn't a cheap or easy process, and so having to manage that whilst also having a team competitive at the highest level of competition in the world and giving them support whilst also producing a range of 'budget' bikes doesn't really sound all that finanicially viable. It'd be cool if more people were able to be a 'part' of the brand they like, but sometimes that's not possible.

There were quite a few Stingers floating around at one point, although the geo on them meant some people weren't keen (long back end). We still have the Yaabaa mod line selling though and people pop up wanting to buy the mod frames too. It's just the way it is, really - there's more money to be made in the cheaper end of the spectrum in the 20" market than there is in the mid-range level of the 26" market (hence no-one really doing middle of the road complete 26" bikes), and then there's money to be made doing what they want to be doing which is doing top line bikes.

[forteh]

But koxx did used to have the top end frames and the cheaper option available, this was before the skys were released and the hydroxx was their flagship. Ok the hydroxx was hardly cheap but it was 25% cheaper than the skys are now, the difference between then and now is that yaabaa as a brand has all but dissapeared from the public eye and the only koxx frames available are super expensive

They are though, as you say, top of the line competition frames and they are sold as such

Edited September 6, 2010 by forteh

[Greetings]

All of Deng's products are made in house, as he has his own factory. Up until relatively recently some of their stuff was still out-sourced, but QC issues such as the problems they had with the batch of freewheels (THAT WERE NEVER RELEASED, before anyone starts saying they were) meant that they decided to make it all in-house. Currently, they're using all of their machines to make some brand new parts for 2011, so that should result in some cool new stuff they couldn't get made before.

Much of them aren't or haven't been up until now as you say.

[Mark W]

But koxx did used to have the top end frames and the cheaper option available, this was before the skys were released and the hydroxx was their flagship. Ok the hydroxx was hardly cheap but it was 25% cheaper than the skys are now, the difference between then and now is that yaabaa as a brand has all but dissapeared from the public eye and the only koxx frames available are super expensive

I think their frame lines just evolved as the company did. The profile Koxx have has changed a lot since they first really became known over here in '02, and they've adapted as a result.

Don't know if it's the reason or not, but I'd imagine the expansion of K-124 into BMX, XC, etc. probably meant they didn't have the same finances to focus purely on trials as they used to when they could offer a wider selection of frames to meet more price-points...

[forteh]

Good point, I had forgotten about the bmx and xc side of koxx

[modifiedridah2k9]

I think their frame lines just evolved as the company did. The profile Koxx have has changed a lot since they first really became known over here in '02, and they've adapted as a result.

Don't know if it's the reason or not, but I'd imagine the expansion of K-124 into BMX, XC, etc. probably meant they didn't have the same finances to focus purely on trials as they used to when they could offer a wider selection of frames to meet more price-points...

Does anybody think it would be cool to have a strong koxx frame with the graphics of a siver sky on it? 'Cos the silver sky is really nice!

[Matt Vandart]

Compare like with like, a 1.4kg Koxx Orange Sky 26" frame. I doubt you will ever find a frame that is stronger at that weight, or as well designed, well built or pretty.

Point taken.

As I said above, a lot of different people. We get customers ranging from comp-Dads buying their kids a Silver Sky to go ride some Tyketrials through to people who just want to have something nice to look at in their garage. We once even sold a pair of Black Sky bikes to two dudes in Japan who ride together. We've even had one customer who bought one of the Sky frames simply because he wanted a frame that colour. You get a pretty big mix of people.

I see.

I'm genuinely not convinced that it would really work like that, in terms of either frame strength, whether it'd be something people would want to buy and whether they'd actually be any good. Equally, Koxx are essentially just a high end comp brand. Apologies for the constant car analogies, but you don't really see Koenigsegg making a cheap shitter purely so people can have their badge on their car? In terms of not wanting to dilute the brand, I think it makes more sense for Koxx to not really offer a watered down version of their frames, especially as opening up into that market offers a whole host of problems in terms of the abuse people give frames, having to deal with warranty claims, having to see people bad-mouthing your brand because they had Part X that broke in Y months, etc.

Ok.

I think that pretty much clears it up then.