AdamR28 Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 Just had a look at that and it definately is a shitter! The Acidrop? You wouldn't believe how similar the geo is to frames that people are crying out for nowadays... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isitafox Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 Wheelbase: 1040mm Chainstays: 395mm BB Drop: 15mm Head angle: 74° No need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Limburn Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 And what about a Foxx, thats affordable, although for skinny peeps!! sorry to bring this topic back up! but at the current price of £299.99 the foxx is quite apealing. what are peoples views on the foxx frame? ride, strength etc theres absolutely nothing wrong with my control 07 but i got the short version and am now thinking about getting a longer frame. being able to get a koxx frame for £300 is growing more and more tempting... my dilemma is that the control is very strong and the foxx looks fragile, maybe too fragile for my riding style. but its beautiful! (no sky i know!) my main problem however... i have a chris king hd with fun bolts and it doesnt look like horizontal dropouts and snail cams can cater for this? cheers, tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rab shropshire Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 sorry to bring this topic back up! but at the current price of £299.99 the foxx is quite apealing. what are peoples views on the foxx frame? ride, strength etc theres absolutely nothing wrong with my control 07 but i got the short version and am now thinking about getting a longer frame. being able to get a koxx frame for £300 is growing more and more tempting... my dilemma is that the control is very strong and the foxx looks fragile, maybe too fragile for my riding style. but its beautiful! (no sky i know!) my main problem however... i have a chris king hd with fun bolts and it doesnt look like horizontal dropouts and snail cams can cater for this? cheers, tom th foxx has a 70kg weight limit on it mate so if your under that i would assume it would be fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 (edited) DB9 £103,000 Cygnet £20,000 Therefore Black Sky £849 Affordable shitter £169........ Crap comparison. For a start the DB9 isn't gonna snap in half doing what it is supposedly designed for and if it does Aston Martin would almost definately give you a new one. This thread has been very cleverly turned from 'How come Koxx frames are so expensive yet so shit in durability" To "Look how lush these frames LOOK" I'm not really bothered and good luck to Koxx is what I say. All I really want some one to admit is it is because the general public are such a bunch of retards and I'll be happy. Edited October 13, 2010 by Matt Vandart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 This thread has been very cleverly turned from 'How come Koxx frames are so expensive yet so shit in durability" ...because the 'so shit in durability' thing was covered ages ago? Made to be superlight = never going to be resistent to dents, and dents are generally what kill frames. If you're tanking your downtube into rails and walls all day long then your frame's life expectancy is going to suffer. If you're not, it won't. It's not a bashers frame, and that's why you'll more often see them on podiums of the highest level comps in the world rather than you will at the next sidehop group ride. All I really want some one to admit is it is because the general public are such a bunch of retards and I'll be happy. Go and make an equivalent frame, get them produced in those sort of quantities, get the bikes made with that level of spec and then you can give people an idea of how much a series of bikes that have won multiple World Cups/Champs should retail for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 (edited) LOLz That sounds like a challenge I am superbly incapable of. Right, so your above post is a very good point indeed. How come Rockman can make their frames retail for less, £200 less, Lighter and as far as I can tell more durable? And no warning that if you bash it, your out of luck matey? Is it purely the tubing? To be fair I think that Koxx have such a good record of podium places dude to their riders rather than down to the frames, or are you saying if someone buys a Koxx frame the skills come in the box too, in a nice wee cnc'd box made of unobtainium? I think the main issue I have here is that I have not seen any of the sky series in real life to see this 'majik and wonder' which they posses. I do believe that in the original post or one near the beginning I stated the concern that Koxx are in danger of f**king themselves up if they continue to price so high/lack durability considering the cheapness of Deng frames by comparison. I have to say I know NO-ONE that rides a Koxx frame and many that ride Deng/ZHI (Chinese frames in general). "A lot of people who've bought the 26" Sky bikes or frames off us have just been people who want to have what they consider to be a really nice, high quality bike. It's the same way you get people who buy boutique shoes when they could just buy a £3 pair of plimsoles from Topman. There's the option there to buy the best possible product, and people go for that. You can point out that, say, the Zoo Piranha is a better value for money frame, but for some people that isn't really the issue. Again, it's just like people who spend a lot of money on luxury cars or high end sports cars." I think this was answered a while ago, but someone bumped the topic. Anyway after reading of a shitty XC frame that is made of plain steel in a magazine recently retailing for £899 I think I shall shut my trap, the real retards are in XC Edited October 14, 2010 by Matt Vandart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Limburn Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 th foxx has a 70kg weight limit on it mate so if your under that i would assume it would be fine thats that out the window then haha. 70kg = 11 stone. im 12.5 - 13, and dont always go for smooth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 How come Rockman can make their frames retail for less, £200 less, Lighter and as far as I can tell more durable? I definitely wouldn't say they were 'more durable'. I'd also say the Koxx frames were designed better, and have fewer issues when it comes to setup. And no warning that if you bash it, your out of luck matey? It's not on the website, but whenever people speak to me either on here, via e-mail or over the phone I usually say the same thing I would about the Koxx frames which is that although it's an expensive frame it's never going to be as strong as a cheaper, heavier frame, and that if you're prone to tanking your tubes into stuff then it will break. We've also changed the warranty 'guidelines' since the Sky frames were introduced, and it seems to basically be more widely known in any case now that if your frame is haggard when you submit it for warranty, chances are a manufactuer isn't going to think 'Oh, we must've made a mistake on that weld' instead of 'I'd imagine repeatedly hammering his downtube into that rail has been the main cause here.' Is it purely the tubing? Tubing, more CNC'd parts on them, etc. To be fair I think that Koxx have such a good record of podium places dude to their riders rather than down to the frames, or are you saying if someone buys a Koxx frame the skills come in the box too, in a nice wee cnc'd box made of unobtainium? A lot of top comp riders not sponsored by Koxx choose to by their frames and use them. There's also a lot of sponsorship requests from people who want to represent K-124 in the UK/world. If their frames are nothing special, why wouldn't those riders save their own money and buy a different frame? I do believe that in the original post or one near the beginning I stated the concern that Koxx are in danger of f**king themselves up if they continue to price so high/lack durability considering the cheapness of Deng frames by comparison. I have to say I know NO-ONE that rides a Koxx frame and many that ride Deng/ZHI (Chinese frames in general). I've only ever seen one Zhi frame, and that was one of your South Walian friends who also seem to be very much into Zhi, like pretty much all of you guys down there now. However, as I said, I haven't ever seen one in person away from there. By contrast, I've ridden with many people riding Silver Skies, a couple of people riding Black Skies, a couple of people riding Grey Skies and Stan riding his Orange Sky. I'm sure if Koxx were finding no-one was buying their products they'd change their range, but in that they continue to enjoy sales with their top end bikes/frames/components they probably don't feel the need to change to making super cheap frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC12345678910 Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 (edited) I agree with the person who said that there should be frames out there in the £450 - £800 bracket that use the high price to make them nukeproof, (and I referenced the nukeproof MTB brand on purpose BTW), using the obviously very talented frame designers, metalergists and engineers that Koxx must have to produce such frames. THIS sort of frame I would pay £800 for... EDIT: And the maladies IMO ride pretty dam good while they last. 2 mates of mine have had one each and both cracked at the BB shell/yoke within warranty. Make up your own conclusions. Edited October 14, 2010 by CC12345678910 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 (edited) Tubing, more CNC'd parts on them, etc. What more cnc'd parts? Why does that make them more expensive to produce? Red sky for example. Which does look very nice by the way. Edited October 14, 2010 by Matt Vandart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Does a billet of aluminium that then has to be CNC'd cost less than a tube of metal where you work or something? Slight headtube difference?! More 'tech' to produce bridges/yokes (speaking of which, the Koxx CNC'd BB yoke is definitely better than the Rockman 'two-piece' CNC'd yoke). Radically different dropouts? No-one would buy a 'bombproof' £800 frame because you can get pretty much 'bombproof' frames for a lot less, and there aren't really many customers out there who are in that sort of price bracket who want a 'bombproof' frame instead of a light, compy frame. You can't really make a trials frame that's super slight and either 'bomb' or 'nuke' proof because it just doesn't work like that. Trials frames get absolutely battered compared to other frames out there. People have massively, massively unrealistic expectations about what frames should apparently be able to take, and the weight they should be whilst still managing to take that force without showing any signs of stress/fatigue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 (edited) No it doesn't cost less. However CNC products are a very cost effective way of manufactureing products in this quanity so do not massively add to production costs imo. In fact a 'cnc'd' drop out in this quanity is THE most cost effective way to produce it. Is that head tube machined from a billet or from a cast/forged peice which is then 'CNCd'? It looks that way in that picture, but obviously I could be wrong, I dont have the advantage of having seen one of these frames in real life. I think people dont quite get the concept of producing things with CNC machinery, it is a cost effective solution not an expensive one. Anyway as stated in a post above here somewhere I have now had my mind set at rest after seeing that rip off xc frame, Trials in general is a reasonably priced cycleing sport when compared to other 'diciplines' of cycleing. Edited October 14, 2010 by Matt Vandart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 However CNC products are a very cost effective way of manufactureing products in this quanity so do not massively add to production costs imo. So what would 'this quantity' be? I didn't say it would 'massively' add to it, but if you have little bits adding up on a frame, then it's going to impact on the total price. As I wrote before, it's one of a series of factors that lead to a difference in price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigjames Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 (edited) Cost effective doesn't mean cheap! It could be still high in cost, it's just the most cost effective method available. Even if it is forged and then CNC finished, the high cost would still be incurred, Dies would need to be made (not cheap) and then still CNC machined after (not cheap). CNC machining itself can be an efficient way of producing things, it will never be as cheap as producing things from a straight tube or as Mark was pointing out with the drop outs, from smaller CNC parts. CNC machining is expensive if doing small batch runs, there's high material wastage, high operating costs from the machinery itself, to setting it up and paying someone to operate it for the long periods of time it would take to produce some of the components Koxx manufacturers. High volume simple CNC parts are cheap, Low volume, batch production, intricate CNC parts are not. I don't understand why someone can't grasp why Koxx frames are expensive! They're designed and produced in for the high end of the competition market, from the best materials available, to an incredibly high standard and are very well designed. The detail they include, quality of production, production methods and materials used coupled with the very low volumes produced for a small portion of a very small market mean they have to carry a high price tag to make them a viable profitable product. Edited October 14, 2010 by craigjames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Fel Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Don't forget Koxx have to get everything made in Asia and exported to us. The likes of Deng have an advantage over koxx there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 (edited) Small quanities. Cost effective doesn't mean cheap! It could be still high in cost, it's just the most cost effective method available. Even if it is forged and then CNC finished, the high cost would still be incurred, Dies would need to be made (not cheap) and then still CNC machined after (not cheap). At no point did I say it would be cheaper than billet machined. I was just asking. At low quanities it would be more cost effective to make these drop outs with a cnc machine. Especially as the drop outs are not the same. As it goes Koxx wanna contact me then because I could produce those dropouts for a couple of quid each, and I bet my ass the factory produceing them are making them for less than I could. What you gonna do, get a tool made for each drop out for a few hundred frames? That is just daft. Also Are you not actually reading what I am typeing? Read my last post again and digest the information. I have already said that I now understand, thats what forums are for, asking questions having things explained and then understanding them. Edited October 14, 2010 by Matt Vandart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Fel Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 The truth is the process is a lot longer than just bashing a few CNC'd parts out for a couple of quid each. You've got to factor in design/testing and actually coming up with the ideas in the first place which take time. As we all know time = money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 (edited) Hardly rocket science though is it ? And these design testing processes would be the same however you finally manufactured it. In fact cnc machineing lends itsef greatly to R&D as you only have to change a program not the tooling. Edited October 14, 2010 by Matt Vandart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Fel Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Hardly rocket science though is it ? And these design testing processes would be the same however you finally manufactured it. In fact cnc machineing lends itsef greatly to R&D as you only have to change a program not the tooling. Yep that's probably why they use it. Pretty simple stuff even for an engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 As it goes Koxx wanna contact me then because I could produce those dropouts for a couple of quid each, Cool. Does that include the price of shipping the raw materials to you, making them, then shipping them off to somewhere else to have them made? Hardly rocket science though is it ? No, it's not, yet it's funny how many frame companies get frame design wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Right, after page 3 I kind of skimmed over the rest as it seems to be a few people saying the same things to each other in different ways. So here's hopefully a fresh take on it. Maybe Koxx charge so much for their frames because people still buy them? If people didn't, they'd not have a business. If you can't afford one, or don't have a need for the benefits they provide, then quit whining and buy another frame or continue riding the one you have (that's what I do, but for both reasons!). Don't hate on those that can afford to pay for something they themselves deem to be worth the money, or the companies who provide for that niche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted October 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 (edited) As it goes Koxx wanna contact me then because I could produce those dropouts for a couple of quid each, and I bet my ass the factory producing them are making them for less than I could. Cool. Does that include the price of shipping the raw materials to you, making them, then shipping them off to somewhere else to have them made? Mended. JD that Answer is perfect, its a shame you didn't post it 5 pages ago. Thanks. Edited October 14, 2010 by Matt Vandart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 I can't really express how over this thread I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Fel Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 I can't really express how over this thread I am. Usually does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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