Fixed Prices On Alcohol Units

[beigemaster]

This topic has been in the public eye for a while now, here is the latest piece with links to previous topics. Also, here is a fantastic series about the history of the past 10 years, if you skip this episode to 33mins in then there is an interesting segment about where this culture came from (a response from the drinks industry to fight the rave culture apparently).

What are you thoughts? Do you drink that much yourself and do you ever worry about your health or social responsibility or should we just have this conversation in the pub?

[Spider Lad]

I think people will simply spend more on alcohol not drink less and spend the same. There's nothing to suggest otherwise. Like the way people won't get their teeth fixed but happily splash out on a bit screen TV.

Raising alcohol duty is another 'stealth' tax, not the government expressing it's concern for our wellbeing. If they really cared and it was that much of a problem they'd simply ban alcohol and we all know that's not going to happen. To be seen to be doing something 'positive' while simultaneously lining their pockets is a fairly common occurence within the authorities.

[Adam-Griffin]

What happened to the good old days when binge drinking was just called getting pissed?

[Muel]

What happened to the good old days when people ran their own f**king lives.

[beigemaster]

I think people will simply spend more on alcohol not drink less and spend the same. There's nothing to suggest otherwise. Like the way people won't get their teeth fixed but happily splash out on a bit screen TV.

Raising alcohol duty is another 'stealth' tax, not the government expressing it's concern for our wellbeing. If they really cared and it was that much of a problem they'd simply ban alcohol and we all know that's not going to happen. To be seen to be doing something 'positive' while simultaneously lining their pockets is a fairly common occurence within the authorities.

Some good points there. I suppose they couldn't simply ban alcohol because any party who suggested that idea would never get into power, would you vote for them? I guess in politics you have to play the game even if on the off chance you do have a genuine moral or ideological concern which is through the tax system.

Another suggestion I heard was to take the licence away from supermarkets since the majority of people who go out are already pissed up on the cheap bottle of vodka they bought from Asda. Obviously supermarkets can undercut any competitor on alcohol because they own so much of the market. Personally, my concern isn't really that of a moral one, as you said, if people want to get pissed then they will just pay more money. My concern is the loss of the old fashioned pub, six closed a day if the Toriegrapgh is to be believed. Call me old fashioned, but I enjoy a good ale and some pub banter with my friends and I don't want that service taken away by people who would be happy to chug all night on a nasty, cheap, watery, fizzy rat pi55 pitiful excuse for a pint then staggering home after pi55ing on a war memorial.

What happened to the good old days when people ran their own f**king lives.

I guess they finished around 508 BC when people realised that to live in a society required social cooperation.

[Muel]

Dude I was being sarcastic. If you leave people to run their own lives, they tend to f**k it up.

[beigemaster]

Dude I was being sarcastic. If you leave people to run their own lives, they tend to f**k it up.

My apologies, I thought your were fighting for the libertarian.

[JT!]

14 year olds don't buy white cider because it's cheap, it's because it's the cheapest. And it will still be the cheapest if this rule gets put in place.

Edited January 8, 2010 by JT!

[Muel]

14 year olds aren't that stupid these days though, we all did but my brothers 14 and almost no-one he knows does apparantly.

The chavs probably still do but they always will anyway.

[beigemaster]

14 year olds don't buy white cider because it's cheap, it's because it's the cheapest. And it will still be the cheapest if this rule gets put in place.

If the scheme came into place with 50p minimum per unit, that takes the price of a bottle of cider from £2 to over £11 source so I don't think that argument works in the case of cider. Cider is ludicrously cheap in proportion to how much alcohol is in there hence why the scheme theoretically knocks up the cost of a bottle of cheap cider but not really touch the price of a good grade wine. I suppose you could argue that chavs will keep buying the Cider even at that cost, but the simple mathematical fact suggests that they will either no longer be able to buy as much or it will come at a proportional cost of something else (say being able to buy cigs).

[Simpson]

Minimum prices is just plan anti everything the UK market stands for, ie. being competitive, free market economy etc. its basically a right in the UK to get shit for the cheapest you can. I think its bollocks that the goverment think it will fix the problem, thats just plain jokes, they give me £3.5k a year to buy alcahol, whatever the price when I want to go out I'll get f**ked and not go and spunk £90 on new shoes, new tee, earpeircing, new socks, going to the cinema and Nando's etc. (as I did today). I know which is more fun!

Its the government being up their asshole again, personally I disagree with a lot of the tax's that the UK impose, for the pure reason of a lot of things are better left to be run by themselves.

[JT!]

If the scheme came into place with 50p minimum per unit, that takes the price of a bottle of cider from £2 to over £11 source so I don't think that argument works in the case of cider. Cider is ludicrously cheap in proportion to how much alcohol is in there hence why the scheme theoretically knocks up the cost of a bottle of cheap cider but not really touch the price of a good grade wine. I suppose you could argue that chavs will keep buying the Cider even at that cost, but the simple mathematical fact suggests that they will either no longer be able to buy as much or it will come at a proportional cost of something else (say being able to buy cigs).

Wow I never thought of it that way.

I'm agen in!

[Mr Plod]

I read somewhere (Can't remember where but was probably a load of tosch but hey ho...) that if the Tories get in then they're going to start charging people that are admitted to hospital due to drink. Think it worked out that it costs the NHS over £500 to keep someone in overnight due to drink related issues so rather than the taxpayer having to pay for it, it would be up to the individual themselves.

Like I said, although it's a load of crap and will never happen it seems like a decent idea in my opinion? Would like to think it would discourage people from going out to get rat arsed but then I doubt it would. And for those that wouldn't pay the £500 then they get a custodial sentence with hard labour to make up the fine? All wishful thinking on my part really.

[beigemaster]

Minimum prices is just plan anti everything the UK market stands for, ie. being competitive, free market economy etc. its basically a right in the UK to get shit for the cheapest you can. I think its bollocks that the goverment think it will fix the problem, thats just plain jokes, they give me £3.5k a year to buy alcahol, whatever the price when I want to go out I'll get f**ked and not go and spunk £90 on new shoes, new tee, earpeircing, new socks, going to the cinema and Nando's etc. (as I did today). I know which is more fun!

Its the government being up their asshole again, personally I disagree with a lot of the tax's that the UK impose, for the pure reason of a lot of things are better left to be run by themselves.

Out of interest, do you think we should still have the NHS or should we have a free market approach like in the US? As Mr Plod has already stated, if people were socially and economically responsible for their own health then this may not be such an issue. For example, if you’re paying tax, are you happy to pay for the health expenses of someone who chain smokes 40 cigs a day who will eventually need treatment for lung cancer? Obviously this isn't really an issue as the duty on cigs goes towards the NHS as an economic contribution to their treatment.

Now if you take the same example for binge drinking the net costs are even greater. Apart from the health related problems and expenses, you have to cover for the extra police and emergency services and criminal damage costs (both physical and the legal bureaucracy). If an individual doesn't drink, should he/she have to help cover this cost?

Unfortunately the free market does require restraint and governance on occasion, if it didn't, we would still have the slave trade.

[Echo-Scott]

To be honest, I reckon if the price of Alcohol goes up. Instead of people(Especially teenagers) just spending more money on drink. I think it will incourage them to try and steal it.

If something suddenly goes from being pretty cheap to then being stupidly expensive, Some people are just going to think 'f**k this' and try stealing it.

And lets be honest, How many people on this forum have stolen something and completely got away with it. Maybe you purposfully stole it or you just accidently walked out the shop with something without relising.

Ill bet that atleast 50% of the forum has stolen something(If it be accidental or not) and not been caught.

Personally, When i was in school. I knew people who would walk into Morrisons. Put 2 70cl bottles of Vodka in there bag. And just walk out.

They would do this a good 2 or 3 days a week. And never got caught.

[Simpson]

Out of interest, do you think we should still have the NHS or should we have a free market approach like in the US?

In ways yes, in ways no. I do belive that those who work the hardest in the UK are those who are punished most. Were coming into a system where those who do f**k all are the ones who benfit most living in the UK. Like in the US if you don't work you don't eat fact, and I feel as if kids grew up knowing this their perspectives on work ethic and standards would rocket, in our current system those who get into trouble at school, maybe spend a bit of time in the pen come out and are "rewarded" with hostels.... whereas everyone else pays out the ass for where they live.

Its taken for granted that you can do f**k all, get someone pregnant, get your council flat and live off of all the allowances. I belive that there should be some NHS in force, but that private helath care for all those employeed is the way forwards, I belive the only way that the UK can cut back on budget suggestions is to make darastic change, but this will never happen because no party is stupid enough to make the changes and upset all the people who live off of benifits. I think that education and all forces should be run by the government but I think that everything out is pretty minor because it doesn't affect hard working people day to day.

This isn't some natzi'ish comment of "let all the poor people who don't have jobs die" it is a, if you give them a reason to work then they might f**king have to comment. However I say this on the internet its going to make me sound like a bit of a middle class douche, thats not the case both my parents work their f**king asses off in underpayed jobs to put us where we are atm.

[Ali C]

lets just say I am glad I don't drink!

[matt_urban]

I know that if it gets more more i will stop drinking wont be able to afford it!

HOMEBREW

[japslap]

In ways yes, in ways no. I do belive that those who work the hardest in the UK are those who are punished most. Were coming into a system where those who do f**k all are the ones who benfit most living in the UK. Like in the US if you don't work you don't eat fact, and I feel as if kids grew up knowing this their perspectives on work ethic and standards would rocket, in our current system those who get into trouble at school, maybe spend a bit of time in the pen come out and are "rewarded" with hostels.... whereas everyone else pays out the ass for where they live.

Its taken for granted that you can do f**k all, get someone pregnant, get your council flat and live off of all the allowances. I belive that there should be some NHS in force, but that private helath care for all those employeed is the way forwards, I belive the only way that the UK can cut back on budget suggestions is to make darastic change, but this will never happen because no party is stupid enough to make the changes and upset all the people who live off of benifits. I think that education and all forces should be run by the government but I think that everything out is pretty minor because it doesn't affect hard working people day to day.

This isn't some natzi'ish comment of "let all the poor people who don't have jobs die" it is a, if you give them a reason to work then they might f**king have to comment. However I say this on the internet its going to make me sound like a bit of a middle class douche, thats not the case both my parents work their f**king asses off in underpayed jobs to put us where we are atm.

Just thought I'd add my view, because I seem to be one of those that some may consider to "can do f**k all, get someone pregnant, get your council flat and live off of all the allowances" I'm single parent so yes I can do f**k all, get a council flat and live of all the allowances but in my case I've worked for 12 years before and I've paid my taxes in that time and I'm now in a position that I can't work until my son starts full time education. So I'm afraid I'll not be getting a job just yet either, but lets not forget, that I'm not rolling in benefits, I get just over £100 a week for myself and my son! So while I can totally see your point about certain parts of society not working that could, Its easy to forget about the parts of society that can't work and need benefits especially having paid taxes and national insurance for years in case they need to fall back on a system like that. Also you don't need to be unemployed to receive benefits, I've paid taxes in my life which went towards your child benefit to help you and your parents even through your parents (as you put it) " work their f**king asses off in underpayed jobs".

As for the fixed prices on alcohol units I think, like smoking if its costing the NHS more money to help (not just now but in the future (where we don't know how much it will cost the NHS because no-one knows how it will effect the young 20 something's when they are 60's that are binge drinking now)) people because heath issues caused by these issues in later life then why not, in the same way that people who work don't want to pay for people living off benefits, I'm sure the people who don't smoke or drink don't want to pay for people's illness later in life caused by binge drinking or lung cancer.

Edited January 9, 2010 by japslap

[Simpson]

Just thought I'd add my view, because I seem to be one of those that some may consider to "can do f**k all, get someone pregnant, get your council flat and live off of all the allowances"

Its taken for granted that you can do f**k all, get someone pregnant, get your council flat and live off of all the allowances.

I still think that there should be systems in place to look after people in your postition, I just feel as though it is entirely unfair that people take it for granted. And you have said that you will not be able to work untill you son starts full time eduction, which is like 7 years off work because you have been forced to be in that position then fair enough! I'm not saying "cut the benifits totally" at all I'm saying the distribution of benifits should be distributed more fairly, if you have worked and contributed then you should be intitled to more than £100 a week! Its people who sponge of the country that are taken money that can't be given back to you, the forces or to the schools that will educate your son. If you work out how much you have payed in taxes, and then work out how much the "uk owes" you then you shouldn't feel guilty about taking their in the slighest.

Thats why I almost didn't post the reply because it easy to take it the wrong way.

[japslap]

I still think that there should be systems in place to look after people in your postition, I just feel as though it is entirely unfair that people take it for granted. And you have said that you will not be able to work untill you son starts full time eduction, which is like 7 years off work because you have been forced to be in that position then fair enough! I'm not saying "cut the benifits totally" at all I'm saying the distribution of benifits should be distributed more fairly, if you have worked and contributed then you should be intitled to more than £100 a week! Its people who sponge of the country that are taken money that can't be given back to you, the forces or to the schools that will educate your son. If you work out how much you have payed in taxes, and then work out how much the "uk owes" you then you shouldn't feel guilty about taking their in the slighest.

Thats why I almost didn't post the reply because it easy to take it the wrong way.

It's OK man I didn't take it the wrong way I totally see where your coming from, it is the people that don't want to work and that know the system and how to get away with it thay are the ones who wreak it for everyone, the trouble is policing the system, all you have to do is walk into my local social secuirty office at the dole line and you can pick out the ones that could have a job, but don't want one, god even the drug dealers are on the dole over here, but the problem is how the government can do something about it in today's society of equal rights, I mean a social security officer like you and me will have a fair idea by the look of someone if they're trying to get a job, but he/she can't say "because you look like this or that your not going to get what your entitled to", that would be unfair as it's personal opinion even though instincts are normally right, the person files a complaint and says he's being discriminated against, the officer gets sacked and the bum probably gets a pay out. But unfortunately society itself is evolving more than it needs in this respect, I fought for custody of my son in court, long story but his mother grew up in a religious cult, in my view that is reason enough for the courts to judge in my favour but in today's society that's seen as being racist against a religion. In the same way that technically, I as the father of my son should be treated equally for custody of my son against his mother, where as years ago a mother would always win a custody battle (unless she was seen as unfit) and a cult was a cult and not a religion! I think society is its own worst enemy treading on egg shells so as not to upset people for fear of being accused of discrimination!