Creationists V Athiests

[Al_Fel]

I've lost interest, if your interested go talk to somebody that cares.

I don't really care, I was just talking about what I've been taught and believe to be true.

I believe the man existed, and I believe he might have done some "amazing" things at the time. I don't think he was the son of god though, I think that was bull shit which has been expanded on for thousands of years ever since.

You've got no interest because you've got no point. Its plain and simple.

You might believe what you've been taught but you've obviously been taught wrong.

If you were born in Afghanistan you'd believe in Allah.

[rugbyman]

oh dear al.

i tried to show if people need a crouch to help them die, let them believe and die with hope. we all need hope!

[Al_Fel]

oh dear al.

i tried to show if people need a crouch to help them die, let them believe and die with hope. we all need hope!

I'm sorry if I've got a bit aggressive I've just been caught up in the moment.

I do understand where you are coming from with the "tell people what they want to hear" thing. But I'm not a fan of the brainwashing that goes on in churches etc.

[rugbyman]

You've got no interest because you've got no point. Its plain and simple.

You might believe what you've been taught but you've obviously been taught wrong.

If you were born in Afghanistan you'd believe in Allah.

you have no faith! some people have. don't knock them because of what they believe. not all people need proof, some just rely on hope.

[Joe O'Connor]

You appear to have missed my post requesting evidence.

Is it possibly because you have none?

You appear to have not read where I said that Christianity is not spread over the media like evoltuion is. Go ask people in a church or in a slum in Fiji as I did, you will find God is working majorly in peoples lives.

Who governs god? would you agree with the statement ''God has never made a mistake''

If you disagree with that statement isn't that a little bit frightening for a believer like yourself?

God has never made a mistake, nor did Jesus, all mistakes are man made. Im guessing you said that because it says "God made man in His own image"? God also gave people the choice to do what they want, and man decided to sin.

I've watched this thread and read all the posts. Dave you and I have locked horns many times over trials stuff, but I feel the need to post, and hope you'll see it as a positive to all that's being said.

There are 2 issues here. 1. Is the theory of evolution 2. Is religion.

1. Whatever my views are on this, it is and always will be a theory!

2. Religion is belief/faith. My personal experience of faith was my sister. She died in December 2006. She and my mom had/have a profound belief in God. She died knowing (in her own mind) that she was going to be with the Lord. She never walked on this earth as she was severely disabled, but she always dreamed 1 day she would. As I sat with her at her beside, 48hours before she died my last words to her before she slipped into unconsciousness were "be anxious for nothing", those are words written in book you see as fiction. She took comfort from them, she slipped into a deep sleep later and past away 2 days later. She was 33.

When I said those words to her, I was well aware of what I was saying, my mom burst into tears, thinking her son was aware of greater things, where as in fact I was saying the things people needed to hear.

Sorry about all this stuff its well heavy.

But you can’t knock what people believe. Let them believe. If you don’t, fare enough

To sum up.

Evolution = theory

religion = faith

Don’t knock either, I won't

Oh

ps

If people believe in God, the best way to make other people believe is not to preach, but to live a life that makes people say, wow who's that guy? He is such a nice bloke..... Oh yes he's a Christian!

Live the life, if you're one, don't bring it to a forum and argue.

Im very sorry to here of your loss.

I dont try to preach, Im just informing people that there is truth in the bible because a lot of people are un educated about Christianity. But it aslo says "Go forth and spread the word" I dont tell people what to do, I just tell them the truth.

You can say what you want however many times you want but you still aren't proving it to me. If I am wrong I'll accept it. If you're right prove me wrong.

So you think its ok to ignore science and just assume everything happens because of God? If everyone did that then you wouldn't be telling us over the internet.

You are getting it WAY wrong here, do you honestly think that Christians just sit back and do nothing?

All of the major discoveries in history were made by Christians, back in the 1800's and what not, everyone was Christian and believed.

Everything up untill the last 100 years was discovered by a Christian, only now Christianity is been pushed under the rug.

Random fact of the day:Tribes in Africa that have never seen a white man ever, have a God that is so similar to the God of Chrstians. So how can it be a made up religion if tribes that have never seen westerners believe in God?

Edited September 24, 2009 by Joe O'Connor

[rugbyman]

I'm sorry if I've got a bit aggressive I've just been caught up in the moment.

I do understand where you are coming from with the "tell people what they want to hear" thing. But I'm not a fan of the brainwashing that goes on in churches etc.

my role aint to tel people anything, i can only tell people what i know. see previous post.

[MadManMike]

You appear to have not read where I said that Christianity is not spread over the media like evoltuion is. Go ask people in a church or in a slum in Fiji as I did, you will find God is working majorly in peoples lives.

It doesn't need to be spread over the media.

If God was real, people would know about it. Nobody can prove he exists - we need proof!

[Al_Fel]

Random fact of the day:Tribes in Africa that have never seen a white man ever, have a God that is so similar to the God of Chrstians. So how can it be a made up religion if tribes that have never seen westerners believe in God?

Ok for a Start westerners did not come up with God.

Have you seen everyone who your great great granddad saw?

Who created God? You still haven't told me.

[rugbyman]

I dont try to preach, Im just informing people that there is truth in the bible because a lot of people are un educated about Christianity. But it aslo says "Go forth and spread the word" I dont tell people what to do, I just tell them the truth

that's a bold statement!

[MadManMike]

Saying that we should go to church to find God is crap, sorry but it is.

Why can no Christians provide evidence?

A book written ages ago is not proof, telling us to "believe and we'll find out" is not proof.

If I tell someone I DJ somewhere, I have witnesses, photos and sometimes even recordings of the event - why do Christians not have this? Because none of it has happened, that's why. It's not even limited to Christians, it's all religions.

[rugbyman]

i don't need proof

if some one on there death bed believes. amen

let's argue now, who cares.

faith

theory

who cares? right now, not me

[MadManMike]

I don't care either, just when people try to indoctrinate me I find it funny that they have nothing to back up their stories,

[rugbyman]

I don't care either, just when people try to indoctrinate me I find it funny that they have nothing to back up their stories,

i haven't. i told you a life story, and if they died happy, what's wrong with that?

[MadManMike]

i haven't. i told you a life story, and if they died happy, what's wrong with that?

I wasn't referring to you, or anyone specific on here...

[Revolver]

Found this picture in the arsehole of the internet, thought it was relevant.

[rugbyman]

I wasn't referring to you, or anyone specific on here...

faith is for those who believe special. we can't knock them. so long as they live their life's Christ like...........if they do that they'll do well.

Edited September 24, 2009 by rugbyman

[Joe O'Connor]

Ok for a Start westerners did not come up with God.

Have you seen everyone who your great great granddad saw?

Who created God? You still haven't told me.

Westerners didint come up with God no, but some tribe of 50 people that no God proves that its not made up because these are tribes that have only been known of in the last few years, and they have had no contact with anyone other than those in the tribe and small neighboring tribes.

No one created God.

[JT!]

So Joe what is your personal experience that keep you believing in god?

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

First off, sorry for your loss. Can't imagine how hard that mut've been for you.

On the religion side, of course if someone take comfort in some crazy story that makes them feel they're not just going to become worm food then great but I can't help feeling a bit sorry for their delusion. Secondly, the main point of this thread was supposed to be Creationism which in my mind is the massive joke at the beginning of the bible which some simple folks don't seem to question. On that point I find the bible laughable and as such know that whoever wrote it didn't have a single clue what they were writing about (understandable, of course, at the time) and so all that follows is also nothing more than Harry Potter Episode 1: The Phantom Jesus.

but some tribe of 50 people that no God proves that its not made up because these are tribes that have only been known of in the last few years, and they have had no contact with anyone other than those in the tribe and small neighboring tribes.

Yeah, Christian missionaries have a lot to answer for... And in the absence of that all that remains is that the eneducated human has an innate need to try and 'understand' the world in which they live and consider what awaits in the afterlife. I don't know what you're specifically describing but I imagine it's similar to what most cultures seem to decide... Something you don't understand? Ah that's the invisible dude. Sick, ill, dying? Yeah that's the invisible dude's plan I'm afraid. What happens when you die? Ah, don't worry, the invisible dude will sort you out. Sounds like 'god' to me.

[Al_Fel]

Westerners didint come up with God no, but some tribe of 50 people that no God proves that its not made up because these are tribes that have only been known of in the last few years, and they have had no contact with anyone other than those in the tribe and small neighboring tribes.

No one created God.

I'd like to find out more about these tribes. Any idea what they were called? I'd be happy to look them up and read about them.

Ah finally the answer I've been waiting for. If no one created God then how did he come into existence? I'm pretty sure Creationists say "if there is a painting then there must be a painter". So if there is a God then there must be a God maker.

Just because I don't have a Religion doesn't mean I go around being a b*****d to everyone. I just don't need an outdated book to look to for guidance.

[1a2bcio8]

I'd like to find out more about these tribes. Any idea what they were called? I'd be happy to look them up and read about them.

Al, I think if these matters interest you and you really want to delve into them, Joseph Campbell is an awesome place to start. His studies are cross cultural and they indicate what is the same across differing religions and this gives a good scholarly explanation of 'God' or religion in general regarding the form it takes (mythical story). He even has talks you can watch if you're not down with reading books so much. You can download the "Power of Myth" or "Mythos" through either a torrent or e-mule. I can't recommend his work more.

edit: Also Karen Armstrong has some quite accesible work on religion, especially Christianity. She was at one point a nun in a monestry but gave up that position because she could no longer support her belief in God.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Ben Rowlands

[Spider Lad]

It's not something that I can "show" you on the internet, if you genuinely care then go ask a real Historian or something ? Not a Christian, not an Evolutionist a proper unbiased Historian.

I think you mean 'evolutionary biologist', and they are arguably historians themselves. They report observations they make and discover verifiable fact. There is no bias, unless you'd consider a tendency towards the truth a bias.

[1a2bcio8]

I think you mean 'evolutionary biologist', and they are arguably historians themselves. They report observations they make and discover verifiable fact. There is no bias, unless you'd consider a tendency towards the truth a bias.

Apologies for the tangent but I'm somewhat suspicious about the idea of the "unbiased" (or "objective") scientist. Even quantum mechanics, in a form of self-reference, 'proved' of itself (its practice) and all observation that subject and object are interdependent and affective of another rather than separate which would allow for 'real' objectivity. This, I believe, relates to the principle of representation, whereby, consciousness is not the direct experience of reality but like a mirror of it. The shape of the mirror and the way it reflects reality relates to its structure. A bendy mirror creates a bendy reflection. A certain physiological and ideological-emotional composition define the type of reflection found in the representation. In other words, the way we interpret reality is dependent on the uniqueness of who we are and thus we find instant bias. Of course, to a certain degree we do interpret the same reality. If we didn't, we wouldn't be able to communicate. The point is, that what we share isn't completely the same, to varying degrees depending on the context involved.

Probably there are better or worse movements toward being unbiased or objective, but more likely, regarding anything near absolute, this is another scientific myth, attached to the one where scientists believe their absolute rationality. Fact is, everybody has a set of assumptions (philosophies) underlying their approach and response to anything - usually unidentified and often staying that way until somebody else points them out. Unfortunately many of these have arisen in the childish part of our development. So that's not to say that some assumptions aren't perhaps a little bit more sensible than others. Saying that King Kong, the gorilla tea pot fairy created the universe is perhaps a less sensible assumption. The heart of the matter is, assumptions are inevitable within any conceptual endeveaour because the world is not entirely comprehensible within a set of ideas, so there will always be parts that aren't answered or complete (ala, Kurt Godel and his theorom of incompleteness within any realtively complex system of logic). Furthermore, our emotions exist not separate to our intellect but within the same nexus or field. So at the very least, the end product of science and scientific statement flows from the unidentified assumptions/incomplete reasoning and the effects of emotion regarding the respective subject area. This is the great irony of the supposed rational scientist (and scientific subscribers) who scorn the "faith" or "belief" of the religious individual. Ultimately, they both do the same, just regarding different parts of their respective activities. Yes some assumptions are probably a bit more mature but they still remain assumptions and often assumptions in science are quite childish, often relating to the desire of some all powerful, all knowing system or thing that we can attach ourselves to for security, similar to the reasons for needing God as an entity. This is the reason I always try to promote modesty in our views. We're all stood on similar foundations. No doubt I frequently forget this modesty.

In similar regard to science and religion (as commonly held), it might be that I argue for my differing conception of God because I've read that it relates to well-being or the going beyond suffering. I've suffered a fair bit in my time regarding depression so perhaps I more readily ignore or block out the assumptions I inevitably hold regarding the validity of my conception of God because I so desperately want this way of being. This, I think, is just one potential illustration of the way we can operate and the way that we can willfully but often unconsciously overextend the reality of something. If it makes us feel better to do so, then this isn't so much of a surprise. I do think that it is more a habit, at least in the sense of depth, of certain religious members, moreso than subscribers to science.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Ben Rowlands

[chrishayton]

God has never made a mistake, nor did Jesus, all mistakes are man made. Im guessing you said that because it says "God made man in His own image"? God also gave people the choice to do what they want, and man decided to sin.

Well if god has never made a mistake then hes pretty useless at designing things. Think of the planet. Volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes. All natural disasters, most of which caused by flaws in the Earth, (tectonic activity). Id say in that respect god made some pretty severe mistakes designing the Earth.

[Spider Lad]

Well if god has never made a mistake then hes pretty useless at designing things. Think of the planet. Volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes. All natural disasters, most of which caused by flaws in the Earth, (tectonic activity). Id say in that respect god made some pretty severe mistakes designing the Earth.

Not to mention that 99% of all species of organism that have ever existed (He "created") have become extinct.