Creationists V Athiests

[Al_Fel]

There clearly are, "Jesus" was well documented through out his life by other officials.

Feel free to show me.

[Pashley26]

Feel free to show me.

I don't need to, "Jesus" was a well documented man and the crowds that followed him and all of the thought at the time are extremely well documented (as I've said three times now).

That is pretty much the only proof that the bible bashers have "his existance" and the bible.

I think it's all bollocks though, so don't call me out on it.

I was simply pointing out that you are VERY wrong when you say there are is no other documentation of his existence and the things claimed to be done in the bible...

[rugbyman]

I've watched this thread and read all the posts. Dave you and I have locked horns many times over trials stuff, but I feel the need to post, and hope you'll see it as a positive to all that's being said.

There are 2 issues here. 1. Is the theory of evolution 2. Is religion.

1. Whatever my views are on this, it is and always will be a theory!

2. Religion is belief/faith. My personal experience of faith was my sister. She died in December 2006. She and my mom had/have a profound belief in God. She died knowing (in her own mind) that she was going to be with the Lord. She never walked on this earth as she was severely disabled, but she always dreamed 1 day she would. As I sat with her at her beside, 48hours before she died my last words to her before she slipped into unconsciousness were "be anxious for nothing", those are words written in book you see as fiction. She took comfort from them, she slipped into a deep sleep later and past away 2 days later. She was 33.

When I said those words to her, I was well aware of what I was saying, my mom burst into tears, thinking her son was aware of greater things, where as in fact I was saying the things people needed to hear.

Sorry about all this stuff its well heavy.

But you can’t knock what people believe. Let them believe. If you don’t, fare enough

To sum up.

Evolution = theory

religion = faith

Don’t knock either, I won't

Oh

ps

If people believe in God, the best way to make other people believe is not to preach, but to live a life that makes people say, wow who's that guy? He is such a nice bloke..... Oh yes he's a Christian!

Live the life, if you're one, don't bring it to a forum and argue.

[JT!]

1. Whatever my views are on this, it is and always will be a theory!

You have the wrong definition for the word theory, and is a comment mistake for people to make who don't have a clue what they're talking about.

The theory of evolution is the same as the theory of gravity. And we're pretty sure we got gravity just about figured out.

The word has different meaning when used in this context/

[Pashley26]

You have the wrong definition for the word theory, and is a comment mistake for people to make who don't have a clue what they're talking about.

The word has different meaning when used in this context/

Oh how I love you Captain Irony.... :zorro:

[Al_Fel]

I don't need to, "Jesus" was a well documented man and the crowds that followed him and all of the thought at the time are extremely well documented (as I've said three times now).

That is pretty much the only proof that the bible bashers have "his existance" and the bible.

I think it's all bollocks though, so don't call me out on it.

I was simply pointing out that you are VERY wrong when you say there are is no other documentation of his existence and the things claimed to be done in the bible...

You can say what you want however many times you want but you still aren't proving it to me. If I am wrong I'll accept it. If you're right prove me wrong.

I've watched this thread and read all the posts. Dave you and I have locked horns many times over trials stuff, but I feel the need to post, and hope you'll see it as a positive to all that's being said.

There are 2 issues here. 1. Is the theory of evolution 2. Is religion.

1. Whatever my views are on this, it is and always will be a theory!

2. Religion is belief/faith. My personal experience of faith was my sister. She died in December 2006. She and my mom had/have a profound belief in God. She died knowing (in her own mind) that she was going to be with the Lord. She never walked on this earth as she was severely disabled, but she always dreamed 1 day she would. As I sat with her at her beside, 48hours before she died my last words to her before she slipped into unconsciousness were "be anxious for nothing", those are words written in book you see as fiction. She took comfort from them, she slipped into a deep sleep later and past away 2 days later. She was 33.

When I said those words to her, I was well aware of what I was saying, my mom burst into tears, thinking her son was aware of greater things, where as in fact I was saying the things people needed to hear.

Sorry about all this stuff its well heavy.

But you can’t knock what people believe. Let them believe. If you don’t, fare enough

To sum up.

Evolution = theory

religion = faith

Don’t knock either, I won't

Oh

ps

If people believe in God, the best way to make other people believe is not to preach, but to live a life that makes people say, wow who's that guy? He is such a nice bloke..... Oh yes he's a Christian!

Live the life, if you're one, don't bring it to a forum and argue.

So you think its ok to ignore science and just assume everything happens because of God? If everyone did that then you wouldn't be telling us over the internet.

[Pashley26]

You can say what you want however many times you want but you still aren't proving it to me. If I am wrong I'll accept it. If you're right prove me wrong.

Quoted from another site for ease, but all common knowledge to the discerning Christian/Evolutionist.

Flavius Josephus was a Jew born some time around 30 AD (near the date of Jesus' death according to the Gospels). He was a Jewish military leader who later became a historian for the Romans. He might be considered a Jewish apologist. In any case, Josephus wrote extensively, and is probably the best source we have for historical events in 1st-century Palestine. The bias of his reporting is debated, but what is of interest here is the two references in Josephus to Jesus. The main citation is from Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 18:3.3, popularly called the Testimonium Flavium. It says in part: "Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; Pilate...condemned him to the cross...and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." We know that after Christians took over the Roman empire through the conversion of Emperor Constantine, various forgeries and alterations (sometimes called "interpolations") were made in documents. The Testimonium Flavium is widely thought to have been one of those interpolations.

The Archko Volume has some truly wonderful documents detailing aspects of Jesus' life as told by prominent historical figures. Chapters include: "Jonathan's interview with the Bethlehem shepherds--Letter of Melker, Priest of the Synagogue at Bethlehem", "Report of Caiaphas to the Sanhedrim concerning the execution of Jesus", "Gamaliel's interview with Joseph and Mary and others concerning Jesus", "Herod Antipater's defense before the Roman Senate in regard to his conduct at Bethlehem" and "Pilate's report to Caesar of the arrest, trial, and crucifixion of Jesus". The book is a complete and utter fraud, written by a Presbyterian minister named Mahan in the 19th century. He got kicked out of his church for writing it. For details, see Modern Apocrypha by Edgar Goodspeed, Beacon Press, 1956. It's out of print, but not impossible to find.

Citations from Roman Historians prove Jesus existed

There are several, but their value is limited. None were eyewitnesses to anything. About all they prove is that some time around 60 AD there was a group called Christians.

There is a general lack of documentation on just about everything from 1st Century Palestine. Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, which might have contributed to this lack of documentation.

[JT!]

Oh how I love you Captain Irony.... :zorro:

[Al_Fel]

Quoted from another site for ease, but all common knowledge to the discerning Christian/Evolutionist.

Flavius Josephus was a Jew born some time around 30 AD (near the date of Jesus' death according to the Gospels). He was a Jewish military leader who later became a historian for the Romans. He might be considered a Jewish apologist. In any case, Josephus wrote extensively, and is probably the best source we have for historical events in 1st-century Palestine. The bias of his reporting is debated, but what is of interest here is the two references in Josephus to Jesus. The main citation is from Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 18:3.3, popularly called the Testimonium Flavium. It says in part: "Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; Pilate...condemned him to the cross...and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." We know that after Christians took over the Roman empire through the conversion of Emperor Constantine, various forgeries and alterations (sometimes called "interpolations") were made in documents. The Testimonium Flavium is widely thought to have been one of those interpolations.

Jesus of Nazareth is possibly mentioned in two passages of the work The Antiquities of the Jews by the Jewish historian Josephus, written in the late first century AD. One passage, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, discusses the career of Jesus. The authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum has been disputed since the 17th century, and by the mid 18th century the consensus view was that it had at a minimum been altered by Christian scribes, and possibly was outright forgery. The other passage simply mentions a Jesus as the brother of a James, possibly James the Just. Most scholars consider this passage genuine,[1] but its authenticity has been disputed by some like Emil Schürer as well by several recent popular writers.

The Archko Volume has some truly wonderful documents detailing aspects of Jesus' life as told by prominent historical figures. Chapters include: "Jonathan's interview with the Bethlehem shepherds--Letter of Melker, Priest of the Synagogue at Bethlehem", "Report of Caiaphas to the Sanhedrim concerning the execution of Jesus", "Gamaliel's interview with Joseph and Mary and others concerning Jesus", "Herod Antipater's defense before the Roman Senate in regard to his conduct at Bethlehem" and "Pilate's report to Caesar of the arrest, trial, and crucifixion of Jesus". The book is a complete and utter fraud, written by a Presbyterian minister named Mahan in the 19th century. He got kicked out of his church for writing it. For details, see Modern Apocrypha by Edgar Goodspeed, Beacon Press, 1956. It's out of print, but not impossible to find.

The Archko Volume or Archko Library [1] is a 19th century volume which contains what purport to be a series of reports from Jewish and pagan sources contemporary with Christ, which relate to the life and death of Jesus Christ. The work went through a number of versions and has remained in print ever since.

Citations from Roman Historians prove Jesus existed Oh really?

There are several, but their value is limited. None were eyewitnesses to anything. About all they prove is that some time around 60 AD there was a group called Christians.hmmm thought as much.

There is a general lack of documentation on just about everything from 1st Century Palestine. Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, which might have contributed to this lack of documentation.

Something that wasn't there can't have been destroyed.

Any more "proof"?

Edited September 24, 2009 by Al_Fel

[Pashley26]

Something that wasn't there can't have been destroyed.

Any more "proof"?

I'm not going to argue with you, for the simple fact that I cannot go into the Roman archives and produce the documents needed

However you're arguing the only feasible, factual and provable thing which proves "Jesus" existed is retarded. He clearly did exist as can be proven in records and personal accounts at the time, he was there. Now wether the things he claims to have done were true we will never know, however he was there alive and kicking.

For the simple reason that you do not know these facts means that your argument is one of incomplete ignorance, where as mine is based on facts. I am saying the man was there, not that he did it.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Pashley26

[Al_Fel]

I'm not going to argue with you, for the simple fact that I cannot go into the Roman archives and produce the documents needed

However you're arguing the only feasible, factual and provable thing which proves "Jesus" existed is retarded. He clearly did exist as can be proven in records and personal accounts at the time, he was there. Now wether the things he claims to have done were true we will never know, however he was there alive and kicking.

For the simple reason that you do not know these facts means that your argument is one of incomplete ignorance, where as mine is based on facts. I am saying the man was there, not that he did it.

I'm not arguing and I'm not saying he wasn't there. I'm asking you to prove to me that he was with these "Facts" you keep going on about. Where are all these records and personal accounts? You do realise that "Jesus" is just a name? There could have been tens maybe even hundreds of people called Jesus back then. I'm asking for just one.

What is your explanation about me completely blowing you out the water with your other quotes maybe it was the devil? Maybe I'm the devil?

I don't really understand what "However you're arguing the only feasible, factual and provable thing which proves "Jesus" existed is retarded." means either.

[Pashley26]

Hey, you're so curious why don't you go do the work ?

End of, I'm out of this thread for the simple fact it's an unsolvable argument.

[Al_Fel]

Hey, you're so curious why don't you go do the work ?

End of, I'm out of this thread for the simple fact it's an unsolvable argument.

I'm not going to look for something that doesn't exist. You're obviously so sure of yourself but you have no proof whatsoever? Its like me telling to you look up a man called Zegdar who lived 3000 years ago and went round teaching the preachings of Zeg. You wont find it because it doesn't exist.

You've obviously just thrown your toys out the pram because you've been proven wrong.

[Pashley26]

I'm not going to look for something that doesn't exist. You're obviously so sure of yourself but you have no proof whatsoever? Its like me telling to you look up a man called Zegdar who lived 3000 years ago and went round teaching the preachings of Zeg. You wont find it because it doesn't exist.

You've obviously just thrown your toys out the pram because you've been proven wrong.

I said I was going but meh', you haven't proven anything either though ?

Go on, prove he didn't exist ? There are more people who say he did exist than didn't...

Edited September 24, 2009 by Pashley26

[Al_Fel]

I said I was going but meh', you haven't proven anything either though ?

Go on, prove he didn't exist ? There are more people who say he did exist than didn't...

I haven't got anything to prove and you can't prove something doesn't or didn't exist. Even the simplest of minds can work that out.

[Pashley26]

I haven't got anything to prove and you can't prove something doesn't or didn't exist. Even the simplest of minds can work that out.

Ahhh ok, so your just arguing any point that is made over Christianity ? Basically being a critic ?

[JD™]

"You hang up"

"No you hang up"

"No, YOU!"

Kiss and make up you couple of gays.

[Pashley26]

Ok, web based arguments are so last year anyway...

:kiss:

[Al_Fel]

I wasn't arguing lol.

You said...

There clearly are, "Jesus" was well documented through out his life by other official registers and referee's.

So I said...

Feel free to show me.

and I'm still waiting.

[rugbyman]

to tired to read the last few posts. i will tommorrow

my point is, it's down to what people believe. let them. don't knock it. when some one's about to die, if they belieive let them. i can see from all sides, some i think might be true, all be it theory, some i think might be true from faith. let it be, let it be, let it be! let people believe what they want to, it'll never hurt you

[Pashley26]

I wasn't arguing lol.

You said...

So I said...

and I'm still waiting.

It's not something that I can "show" you on the internet, if you genuinely care then go ask a real Historian or something ? Not a Christian, not an Evolutionist a proper unbiased Historian.

I'm saying that a man called "Jesus" existed and he made a bit of a following, and that is has been documented in Roman books and records.

You cannot argue that "somebody" had to have done "something" for these stories to get written ? And any lie, no matter how big or small it is will always start with something factual.

[Al_Fel]

to tired to read the last few posts. i will tommorrow

my point is, it's down to what people believe. let them. don't knock it. when some one's about to die, if they belieive let them. i can see from all sides, some i think might be true, all be it theory, some i think might be true from faith. let it be, let it be, let it be! let people believe what they want to, it'll never hurt you

Are you for real?

I'd quite like to see you say that to all the soldiers that have died in Iraq and Afghanistan etc family's.

[rugbyman]

Are you for real?

I'd quite like to see you say that to all the soldiers that have died in Iraq and Afghanistan etc family's.

wtf?

what are you on about?

am i missing a thread?

[Al_Fel]

It's not something that I can "show" you on the internet, if you genuinely care then go ask a real Historian or something ? Not a Christian, not an Evolutionist a proper unbiased Historian.

I'm saying that a man called "Jesus" existed and he made a bit of a following, and that is has been documented in Roman books and records.

You cannot argue that "somebody" had to have done "something" for these stories to get written ? And any lie, no matter how big or small it is will always start with something factual.

Is the trials forum bullshitomiter broken tonight? There seems to be a lot of people talking some crazy shit.

Have you personally seen these books and records that talk about Jesus? Can you even just name one and I'll read it myself.

"You cannot argue that "somebody" had to have done "something" for these stories to get written ? And any lie, no matter how big or small it is will always start with something factual."

I can argue that actually. Are you telling me the Luke Sky Walker really did blow up the death star?

to tired to read the last few posts. i will tommorrow

my point is, it's down to what people believe. let them. don't knock it. when some one's about to die, if they belieive let them. i can see from all sides, some i think might be true, all be it theory, some i think might be true from faith. let it be, let it be, let it be! let people believe what they want to, it'll never hurt you

Maybe I should have made myself a bit clearer. What you're saying is "let people believe what they want to, it'll never hurt you" So you're telling me if a suicide bomber "BELIEVES" he will go to heaven and get 50 virgins if he blows up the train/bus/building I'm on/in then it wont hurt me? I'll say it again you're talking shit.

wtf?

what are you on about?

am i missing a thread?

Nope just missing a clue by the look of things.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Al_Fel

[Pashley26]

Is the trials forum bullshitomiter broken tonight? There seems to be a lot of people talking some crazy shit.

Have you personally seen these books and records that talk about Jesus? Can you even just name one and I'll read it myself.

"You cannot argue that "somebody" had to have done "something" for these stories to get written ? And any lie, no matter how big or small it is will always start with something factual."

I can argue that actually. Are you telling me the Luke Sky Walker really did blow up the death star?

I've lost interest, if your interested go talk to somebody that cares.

I don't really care, I was just talking about what I've been taught and believe to be true.

I believe the man existed, and I believe he might have done some "amazing" things at the time. I don't think he was the son of god though, I think that was bull shit which has been expanded on for thousands of years ever since.