Joe O'Connor Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Dear Joe, please refrain from quoting the bible. It really is just falling of def ears.Yours Sincerely, JT.If you were to read them, you would see that they do have relevance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolver Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 I find your side of this argument difficult to comprehend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 If you were to read them, you would see that they do have relevance.Not really, the bible is as good as a book of fiction. It'd be like using a Harry Potter book to learn about gravity.Everything in it is irreverent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadManMike Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Joe, you can post as much as you like, but you still haven't posted any EVIDENCE.Saying "If you believe, you'll see" is a load of crap - you need to give us hard evidence, an event that has actually happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Fel Posted September 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 You say matter cannot be created, so something had to create it? Bit of a contradiction. Plus, if something/someone did create it, what/who created the thing that created the universe?If you were to read them, you would see that they do have relevance.I think the "If everything has a creator then who created God" Question has been sidestepped enough now? Does the Bible tell you who created God? Or even how God became God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 God has supposedly been around forever, he always has and always will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolver Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 I think the "If everything has a creator then who created God" Question has been sidestepped enough now? Does the Bible tell you who created God? Or even how God became God?Apparently, if you actually manage to knock chuck norris out, you become god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomm Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 More mutation, forced or otherwise, rather than evolution I'd say. Seemed to come oout of nowhere is all.It's a good example of how evolution works though. A simple bacterium, (S. Aureus for example) is living in someone's nose. It reproduces every now and again, each time with the potential for a new mutation. One of these mutations happens to be the production of a slightly-altered cellular enzyme, with the capability to deactivate antibiotics. That confers an absolutely massive survival advantage for that particular bacterium, and it is therefore much more likely to survive compared to other bacteria which have been killed. This is survival of the fittest, as seen over a period we can observe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skoze Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 And if anyone asks "If God loves us, how come bad stuff happens to the world?" Well this can be answered through the bible (Yes I know... The book), the bible says "In the begining, everything was good" and everything was, but after they went against God and ate the fruit (I dont think it means literal fruit, but sin in general), God punished them and said that they had to fight for survival and what not.The bible says that everyone can repent for their sins and God will forgive them, why didn't that apply with Adam and Eve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Nick Riviera Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 War is peace, Freedom is slavery, Ignorance is strength, God and religion aren't mutualy exclusive.Has anyone read 'Fear and trembling'? It raises some good points on the nature of what faith is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1a2bcio8 Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Dear Joe, please refrain from quoting the bible. It really is just falling of def ears.Yours Sincerely, JT.You don't actually speak for all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider Lad Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 More mutation, forced or otherwise, rather than evolution I'd say.You can't 'force' a mutation in such a specific sense.Evolution results from mutation. If that mutation is advantageous then it results in that mutation surviving in the gene pool, evolution driven by natural selection. It's a good example of how evolution works though. A simple bacterium, (S. Aureus for example) is living in someone's nose. It reproduces every now and again, each time with the potential for a new mutation. One of these mutations happens to be the production of a slightly-altered cellular enzyme, with the capability to deactivate antibiotics. That confers an absolutely massive survival advantage for that particular bacterium, and it is therefore much more likely to survive compared to other bacteria which have been killed. This is survival of the fittest, as seen over a period we can observe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe O'Connor Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 The bible says that everyone can repent for their sins and God will forgive them, why didn't that apply with Adam and Eve?He did forgive them, but He also punished them. Being kicked out of the garden of Eden was the punishment.But then again, this could be metaphorical, it could be saying that if you go against God then you will be pnished for it.Punishment and forgiveness are two different things.You don't actually speak for all of us.Thank you, at least one person is listening!Makes it all worth while! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1a2bcio8 Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) He did forgive them, but He also punished them. Being kicked out of the garden of Eden was the punishment.But then again, this could be metaphorical, it could be saying that if you go against God then you will be pnished for it.Punishment and forgiveness are two different things.As a methaphor, Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden represents their development of knowledge, from which followed an understanding (or creation) of Good and Evil. More fundamentally, it represents a dualistic identification of the self (and the rest of reality) over a monistic one. Rather than viewing everything as the same (I am all), the world is broken up into bits (I am this, you are that). In so much as something is other instead of same, it is a problem. An analogy is the fear of another human because they want to cause violence to you. If you view yourself as that person, there is nothing to fear. If you view them as separate to yourself, with the meanings that carries (mortality being one), you will experience fear. Where some Christians have often got it wrong, I believe, is with the idea that heaven only follows death and is a consequence of 'right' living in this life. Heaven is a state of being that is open to us in this life and is the realisation of monism; the fundmamental unity/sameness of all things (what is not existence?) which carries with it immortality. I am all. However, this state is not simply a return to the Garden of Eden (purely monistic), because we still maintain a dualistic perception (the ability to discern/conceptualize/talk) but where appropriate to our well being, the monistic view informs our perception and activity. If anybody fancies watching the scholarly, Joseph Campbell link that I put into one of my earlier posts, we find that this metaphor exists (with some surface differences) in other cultures, separated by space-time. Thus we find evidence for the concept of religion/myth representing a description and guide to the conditions of human life. We also find an alternative pole existing to the side of the typical, and I think erroneous, atheism/theism debate. Edited September 24, 2009 by Ben Rowlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Where some Christians have often got it wrong, I believe, is with the idea that heaven only follows death and is a consequence of 'right' living in this life. Heaven is a state of being that is open to us in this life and is the realisation of monism; the fundmamental unity/sameness of all things (what is not existence?) which carries with it immortality. I am all. However, this state is not simply a return to the Garden of Eden (purely monistic), because we still maintain a dualistic perception (the ability to discern/conceptualize/talk) but where appropriate to our well being, the monistic view informs our perception and activity.oooooooooooooooo heaven is a place on earth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolver Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 They say in heaven love comes first... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1a2bcio8 Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) oooooooooooooooo heaven is a place on earthHah, that somehow manages to make everything I just said seem really stupid. Thanks Anyway, but yeah, Heaven, Nirvana, Nibbana, whatever label you want to attach to the monistic realisation of reality. Not so much a place, but a potential way of being on earth, now. Edited September 24, 2009 by Ben Rowlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadManMike Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 He did forgive them, but He also punished them. Being kicked out of the garden of Eden was the punishment.But then again, this could be metaphorical, it could be saying that if you go against God then you will be pnished for it.Punishment and forgiveness are two different things.Thank you, at least one person is listening!Makes it all worth while! You appear to have missed my post requesting evidence.Is it possibly because you have none? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Hah, that somehow manages to make everything I just said seem really stupid. Thanks Anyway, but yeah, Heaven, Nirvana, Nibbana, whatever label you want to attach to the monistic realisation of reality. Not so much a place, but a potential way of being on earth, now.Haha, naaah I was just going for the cheap laugh You're posts on this subject are always insightful and thought provoking. It's kind of the way I feel subconsciously and don't realise till you put it down in black and white. I feel like I'm professing love now, I'll stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuel Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 You appear to have missed my post requesting evidence.Is it possibly because you have none?what he said. Im still waiting ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Is there a chance that the entire bible could be in fact metaphorical (fiction) and that maybe there was no Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Kings, wise men, star, sheep, donkeys, octopii, burning bush, Noah, ark, flood, burning bush,..., snake, tree, apple, Adam, Eve, rib, 7 day creation, god? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1a2bcio8 Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Is there a chance that the entire bible could be in fact metaphorical (fiction) and that maybe there was no Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Kings, wise men, star, sheep, donkeys, octopii, burning bush, Noah, ark, flood, burning bush,..., snake, tree, apple, Adam, Eve, rib, 7 day creation, god? I think there probably was a Jesus. In fact, in the absence of Jesus, we find the absence of a spiritual/mystical example (archetype) which would somewhat reduce the weight of the message. If there are no examples of people who are supposedly "enlightened" to God (as a reaslisation not an entity), then I have less reason to believe or pursue such a thing. Although perhaps this doesn't have to matter. Perhaps all that is required for such a resource, is that those who are engaged in writing it have some level of spiritual/mystical awareness. The most essential message could remain the same in the absence of Jesus being real. I personally would prefer to hear of real examples, however. But again, this doesn't matter to me now since I have had the some of type of experiences refered to in religious texts. I guess this last point is actually the most weighty to any religion - personal experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishayton Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 He did forgive them, but He also punished them. Being kicked out of the garden of Eden was the punishment.But then again, this could be metaphorical, it could be saying that if you go against God then you will be pnished for it.Punishment and forgiveness are two different things.Thank you, at least one person is listening!Makes it all worth while! Who governs god? would you agree with the statement ''God has never made a mistake''If you disagree with that statement isn't that a little bit frightening for a believer like yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Fel Posted September 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 I think there probably was a Jesus.I might be taking it slightly out of context here but can you find any other 2000 year old book that mentions Jesus other than the Bible? There are hundreds of books from back then yet none of them talk about this amazing person that can do Godlike acts.If you look into other much much older religions you'll also find a very similar story to the one of Jesus.Again I'm wondering why the Question "If God created us and everything has a creator then who created God?" has been side stepped once again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pashley26 Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) I might be taking it slightly out of context here but can you find any other 2000 year old book that mentions Jesus other than the Bible? There are hundreds of books from back then yet none of them talk about this amazing person that can do Godlike acts.There clearly are, "Jesus" was well documented through out his life by other official registers and referee's. Edited September 24, 2009 by Pashley26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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