Creationists V Athiests

[JT!]

The majority of people that havent seen, havent seen due to lack of faith. You say that you've never seen it and you dont believe, I have seen it and I believe. See how that works?

Most 'miracles' are just off chance events that people who believe in god put down to his doing. What actually happened to you personally?

how come Noah didn't save two of every single species of dinosaur as well when the flood came?

Because they were too big herrrrrrr de derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[manuel]

The majority of people that havent seen, havent seen due to lack of faith. You say that you've never seen it and you dont believe, I have seen it and I believe. See how that works?

Isnt the point of faith that there is NO proof and you just believe it blindly ? What you seem to be saying is if you have faith you will actually see god doing something positive and effective (or just anything), which kinda makes having faith pretty pointless ? So If I truley believe in god for just a second he will prove himself to me ?

so no I don't see how that works.

You are possibly one of the most closed minded people I have ever come across - Im all for believing in god and it having a positive effect on people who believe, a lot of people who went to Uni with (and more importantly engineers ...) were christians but it didnt close them off from reality and learning, and had a fantastic effect on their personality... When religion has the effect of leading to a stunning lack of education in a fundamental way the world works, and a pretty poor grasp of reality I think I have to draw the line and say its totally cruel.

Incidentally are your parents religious ? Ever wondered if your "faith" comes directly from the fact it is all you have ever known ?

I Feel quite ready for the barrage of abuse I will probably get from this post. Not necessarily you Joe

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

I Feel quite ready for the barrage of abuse I will probably get from this post. Not necessarily you Joe

Yeah- bloody posties going on strike! Who do you think you are, eh? 'We're not doing it for the money'. Whatever! Just deliver the damn mail! ()

[manuel]

Yeah- bloody posties going on strike! Who do you think you are, eh? 'We're not doing it for the money'. Whatever! Just deliver the damn mail! ( )

haha - no way - A full days wage for a half days work. Unions against general change. Management for cuts not modernisation...

Expect long delays ...

ALL OUT BROTHERS.

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

Solidarity.

[Mat Tea Why]

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Edited August 11, 2021 by Mat Tea Why

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

I went to a Christian primary school and was brought up to believe that the bible was pretty much literal truth. Because I was young most inconsistencies noted by me or other pupils were easily avoided. It was through my own curiosity that I learned about science, and drew to my conclusions about life.

Edit\\ Evidently the answer to everything is FeS.

Good for you . I'm glad not all Christian brain washing is successful and some people in your position are able to think about things for themselves rather than blindly following whatever they've been taught to believe.

And as for the edit?

[Shaun H]

Yeah I cant see it.

Watch some stuff from John MacKay, he is a fully qualified Christian scientist who says creation is possible through science.

Find me a fully qualified scientist who is faithless that has found similar evidence to Mr MacKay. The fact he is a Christian makes his findings inherently biased. If a scientist with no religous background were to find some evidence correlating to any event in the Bible then you'd better believe that the entire scientific community would be sat straight up waiting to see what conclusions were drawn.

With proper scientific evidence (OBJECTIVE evidence) any scientist worth his title would be excited to investigate the possibility of the world being just 6000 years old.

Yet this has never happened. Only Christian organisations seem to turn up this sort of evidence and it is always refuted by full, logical and complete study. (if I'm wrong please cite me a case)

I have seen Gods work first hand, but I have never seen Evolution at work.

have you seen the work of Evolution first hand? No, because it takes Millions of years for it to happen.

Here's some information from the BBC's GCSE bitesize service.

It is designed for 15-16 year olds to understand so hopefully it's just right for you

HERE.

It gives up a couple of examples where evolution's basic mechanisms (mutations, extinction etc) have been observed by the human world.

No doubt you will disagree, but hey what do I care?

This sort of attitude is what's stopping you expand your knowledge on anything that might refute your beloved religion.

I care very much what you have to say. If you actually manage to put forward some real evidence of creationism then I will be converted back to a Christian (I went to a Church of England school, was Christened etc) and with any luck I'd be saved from eternity in damnation (although why God would want to send a perfectly good (IMO) person there is beyond me!) however atm there is so much evidence stacked up against the Bible's story of Earth's natural history that I am most definitely a "devout scientist" (well... engineer!).

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

any scientist worth his title would be excited to investigate the possibility of the world being just 6000 years old.

Considering that possibility is just impossible(!), not unlikely or improbable, just impossible, then the scientist would do more good by banging his head against a brick wall... I'd be loathed to investigate that.

If you actually manage to put forward some real evidence of creationism then I will be converted back to a Christian

I'm confident that ain't gonna happen... ever. Believe in what you want if it makes you happy but pleeeeease don't even consider creationism to be anything other than a fairy tale!

[MadManMike]

the scientist would do more good by banging his head against a brick wall...

*bangs head against brick wall*

[Shaun H]

Considering that possibility is just impossible(!), not unlikely or improbable, just impossible, then the scientist would do more good by banging his head against a brick wall... I'd be loathed to investigate that.

You wouldn't be excited that there is suddenly solid evidence that goes against everything we believed was true before!? What kind of wannabe enquiring mind do you have!?

I'm confident that ain't gonna happen... ever. Believe in what you want if it makes you happy but pleeeeease don't even consider creationism to be anything other than a fairy tale!

Of course you are right. But I just wanted to point out to Joe that I am open to any arguement that has real evidence to back it up and am curious as to why he is not.

I eliminated creationism from my mind a good few years ago, taking arguements from what religous teachers have told me and what I have been taught by school teachers and what I researched myself.

I took into account all my knowledge and realised that creationism was, as you say, a fairy tale as far as I'm concerned.

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

You wouldn't be excited that there is suddenly solid evidence that goes against everything we believed was true before!? What kind of wannabe enquiring mind do you have!?

Haha, if you put it like that... However, I know that the chance of that happening is equal to me waking up tomorrow morning and finding that I can fly like Superman. I can't really take the concept seriously!

[Adam-Griffin]

*bangs head against brick wall*

[Spider Lad]

MRSA.

C.Dif.

Domestication of livestock.

Dog breeding.

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

Mmkay...

[craigjames]

I personally have no issues with religion in general, they can and do give vaulable guidance, structure and purpose to poeples lives. However the concept of creationism seems to take all other forms of religion and other concepts and sweeps them aside. This to me seems slightly narrow minded. There's also the issue that the scriptures that its concept of faith is based upon ignores all forms of existing fact, logic and rationality.

Maybe it is a section of religion for the extemely insecure and maybe naive, it seems to package everything up in a very closed, simple package; very simple and straight forward for its followers to understand and provides a solid excuse for ignorance of any other theory, fact or belief. It's a comfort zone, by being able to accept something as fact and ignore all other possibilities i guess you can carry on your life without the need to be inquisitive and be blessed in the knowlede that you are going to heaven.

It even seems from what i have read and been told that the majority of creationists do accept the scientifcally established time line and evolution of some sorts, but also believing that God had some guidance in the process; which is more than feasible.

After it all i've got to thank Dave and Tom for producing a higly entertaining read, the niavity of some people in the modern world is quite a scary concept and unfortunately i beleive the basis of many conflicts at what ever level.

As Rich Pearson once said to me "Craig, we're both going to hell!" oh well, its warm and i'll get a good seat.

Edited September 23, 2009 by craigjames

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

I have to say that the creation story, i.e. the beginning of the bible, is one of the main reasons I could never take christianity seriously even from a young age. If it starts off with such a stupid blatantly false 'tall tale' I've never had even the slightest inkling to read any further because I know everything else from that point on is also just a work of fiction.

I do agree with you that it's a comfort zone for anyone who doesn't want to think for themselves and is hence why I tend to consider religious people, probably wrongly, as rather naive and displaying a lack of intelligence.

Rich always has had a way with words!!

[bikeperson45]

I have to say that the creation story, i.e. the beginning of the bible, is one of the main reasons I could never take christianity seriously even from a young age. If it starts off with such a stupid blatantly false 'tall tale' I've never had even the slightest inkling to read any further because I know everything else from that point on is also just a work of fiction.

I'm a Christian and I sort of agree. I don't really see how the beginning of the Bible could be completly true, maybe it is, it's not like I know. It does seem fictional, like Harry Potter or something. But I prefer to think of it as pretty much saying that God created the world, which is what I believe. i think that God is the trigger for the creation, through the big bang, and that Genesis is sort of exagerated or metaphorical.

And check out this funky font!

[craigjames]

I think that's it, Christianity and its scriptures and any other religion for that matter, i don't believe should be taken literally, but should be used as a guide, a set of ideals and morals as to how you should act and live your life. It shouldn't constrict or block your views on things that are factually based. Religion can be an amazing thing is someone's life, I've many friends who love their religion, find it enriches their lives but it doesn't encroach on how they think about the wider things in the world. Personally i think if you allow religion to do that to your life you've missed the whole point of religion itself.

[ManxTrialSpaz]

Mmkay...

Looks like a nice list of examples of evolution to me.

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

Looks like a nice list of examples of evolution to me.

More mutation, forced or otherwise, rather than evolution I'd say. Seemed to come oout of nowhere is all.

[Joe O'Connor]

OK, the main thing about evolution that I have trouble getting to grips with is the time that it says (e.g 20 million years). Because to me that is just crazy long. And when you see pictures of skelletons of monkey men, to me it looks like a monkey that died partly standing up straight not a partly evolved human.

Through my posts it seems like I am simple minded or narrow minded, however I actualy do think that certain parts of evolution have some facts. And yes, the start of the bible does seem a bit far fetched and that it doesnt seem possible and as bikeperson45 said, it could be metaphorical. Like I dont think that in the begining God created only one man and one woman because that is incest and that is against Christianity, I would say that it is refering to men and woman in general (e.g He made lots of them).

John MacKay does believe in evolution to some extent, like he said that there are some Platypus that have teeth and others that dont. He says that this is because of adapting to the surroundings, because the ones with no teeth live in areas where they dont need to chew things.

However, they still have a similar mouth and there are areas where the teeth would of grown and that when they are still a fetus in the egg the brain has told the body that it doesnt need teeth and it doesnt grow them.

I believe that things like that do happen which is like evolution somewhat, but I still believe that God created everything and he has the power to destroy everything.

And if anyone asks "If God loves us, how come bad stuff happens to the world?" Well this can be answered through the bible (Yes I know... The book), the bible says "In the begining, everything was good" and everything was, but after they went against God and ate the fruit (I dont think it means literal fruit, but sin in general), God punished them and said that they had to fight for survival and what not. And after this God allowed massive winds and storms. And in the begining everything was vegetarian, and once they started to eat meat is where diseases started (e.g pigs eat dead carcasses that have bugs from the ground in them, and people got sick from eating the bugs in the pig when they ate it) this can also explain why when you eat bad foods you get ulsurs in your mouth because our bodies were not originaly designed for that.

Isnt the point of faith that there is NO proof and you just believe it blindly ? What you seem to be saying is if you have faith you will actually see god doing something positive and effective (or just anything), which kinda makes having faith pretty pointless ? So If I truley believe in god for just a second he will prove himself to me ?

so no I don't see how that works.

You are possibly one of the most closed minded people I have ever come across - Im all for believing in god and it having a positive effect on people who believe, a lot of people who went to Uni with (and more importantly engineers ...) were christians but it didnt close them off from reality and learning, and had a fantastic effect on their personality... When religion has the effect of leading to a stunning lack of education in a fundamental way the world works, and a pretty poor grasp of reality I think I have to draw the line and say its totally cruel.

Incidentally are your parents religious ? Ever wondered if your "faith" comes directly from the fact it is all you have ever known ?

I Feel quite ready for the barrage of abuse I will probably get from this post. Not necessarily you Joe

Faith is not about blindly believing, it is about allways believing but also believing in the signs that God gives you as being signs from God. God does not spread his face all over the media like evolution does because He gives everyone the choice to do what is right. If you believe in God and go out of your way to do things for God, yes you will see him. When I was around 13ish I never thought of God that much and never saw anything from Him, but now that I am devoted to Him I have seen so much from Him which just increases my faith in him.

I am not cloesed off from everything else, I just suck at wording things and it makes me seem that way.

My Dad is the mens group leader at church and Mum has lost her way with Christianity, So I do have a Christian background, but Dad has always said that we have the choice in what we believe, like when I said before that I wasnt much of a Christian, Dad never forced me to be one or go to church, I go to church every Sunday because through what I have seen. Christianity is not all I haveever known, I admit that I dont know a hell of a lot about evolution, but I want to know more to compare to what I do believe.

John 8:47 "Those who belong to God hears God. The reson you dont hear God is that you dont belong to God".

That is a great example why you wouldnt see the work of God.

[JD™]

At last you're sounding a little bit sane! I only read the first half, but it sounds like you're able to reason...

[JT!]

Dear Joe, please refrain from quoting the bible. It really is just falling of def ears.

Yours Sincerely, JT.

[Sam-Addy A3]

Because matter cannot be created or destroyed, so someone had to create something in the begining, for there to be anything.

You say matter cannot be created, so something had to create it? Bit of a contradiction. Plus, if something/someone did create it, what/who created the thing that created the universe?

Edited September 23, 2009 by Sam-Addy A3