Is Anybody On Here A Hardcore Christian?

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

(Click the pic... it's an oldy but it's a goodun)

And to Hannah- yeah, chistianity's obviously not about healing powers, unless you're a narrow minded brainwashed American... It's far more about trying to control the flock and subduing the masses. Oh, and in times gone by trying to stop 'heretical disobedience' (otherwise known as scientific discovery and free thinking) by torturing and murdering people who opposed the church. Christianity really has a lot to answer for.

[Hannah Shucksmith]

I couldn't be bothered to read through all the debate to be honest, it's not like any atheist on here is going to read it all and think "bloody hell, this all makes sense, i must become a Christian!" It's like me converting to Islam or Buddhism for Christ's sake. Opinion is opinion and personal faith is well, personal... Believing doesn't mean myself and any other Christian are bad people, just have faith in something. I'd rather think I'm going to heaven over being skull-fooked by maggots in the ground.

Edit:

Ha, even my photos show I'm a pretty in-depth believer...

Edited May 27, 2009 by Hannah Shucksmith

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

It's like me converting to Islam or Buddhism for Christ's sake.

I don't think he'd be too impressed to be fair...

[Muel]

Christianity isn't all about being healed fast you know...

Who said it was? Try reading the thread again and calming down Hannah, you'll notice that no-one said anything like that, we simply said that the whole healing thing proving the existance of some dude in the clouds was bollocks.

No-one can actually prove if there is a god or not, I don't believe there is but that's my opinion, not a fact. What annoys me is the yankees passing their blinkered view off as fact, they can't ever question it because they've seen "miracles" happen.

[Hannah Shucksmith]

No-one can actually prove if there is a god or not, I don't believe there is but that's my opinion, not a fact. What annoys me is the yankees passing their blinkered view off as fact, they can't ever question it because they've seen "miracles" happen.

If you're so sure about the occurance of the Big Bang, you tell me where space came from, the gasses and all that jazz?

Edited May 27, 2009 by Hannah Shucksmith

[Simon]

I'd rather think I'm going to heaven over being skull-fooked by maggots in the ground.

You do realise your body just doesn't magically disappear, right? So your going to get "skull-fooked" regardless of what faith you believe in.

I love religion, it brings me news articles that J. K. Rowling. herself couldn't think of.

[Hannah Shucksmith]

You do realise your body just doesn't magically disappear, right? So your going to get "skull-fooked" regardless of what faith you believe in.

Not if I'm cremated I won't be

Edit: On a more serious note, for those of you so adamant that the Big Bang was the cause of all existance, explain to me how? I'm not exactly a Scientist but the entire theory suggests that space is forever going to expand. If anyone can explain to me how space is expanding then I'd like to make my bedroom a little bigger.

It's like, "Full stop on the end of your sentance, capital letters at the beginning of a sentance, 1+1=2, 2+2=4, 3+3=6, the Spanish word for 'hello' is 'hola', Albert Einstein was a Jew, there are 30 days in September, oh, and by the way the entire universe and all that surrounds it came from an explosion of gasses and all your ancestors swung from trees and had blue arses."

Edited May 27, 2009 by Hannah Shucksmith

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

If you're so sure about the occurance of the Big Bang, you tell me where space came from, the gasses and all that jazz?

But it's a self obsessed human idea that something (or someone) had to create the gasses and all that jazz. There are a whole host of theories about what might have caused the initial singularity which caused the Universe to start expanding, but the evidence that it happened is there. In my mind I see no reason why there can't be an infinite number of individual Universes outside our own (not talking parallel here, just co existing outside of our own), or that our own Universe hasn't been expanding and contracting into a 'Big Collapse' cyclicly forever and may continue to do so forever.

Again, what you're getting at (I think) is not christianity. Christianity is the teachings of god through the bible which is just a fictional novel created as a form of control for the general populous. The 'first cause' of the big bang comes under something completely different. If you want to call that cause god, that's your call, but surely that can't be the same god who created the world in 7 days and sits on a cloud or whatever.

Big Bang wiki.

[beigemaster]

I'm not going to make a big contribution to this topic as I would just be repeating myself from the "R.I.P Intelligent Design Thread" but this "debate" pretty much summons up my views from that thread, mainly the somewhat lack of intelligent and tolerant rational thinking on both sides which is probably why (as Lewis points out) world views of a society change over time all the time. Hence, a couple of hundred years ago, religion was the given belief of the majority and currently it's materialism. You only have to look further back in time to see this trend ranging from pantheism to paganism.

I would say a couple of things though:

Firstly, Hannah, I'm not sure I understand how on earth someone can claim to be a Christian but have no reference to the Bible. If you look at this logically and assume that Christ is the founder of Christianity (which seems to make sense) then even he said how important it is/was to "read the scriptures" which I assume means the Bible. If I claimed I was a mechanic, but had never worked on a car, then you probably wouldn't think I was really a mechanic. Seems to me that belief in the Bible is a necessary condition of being a Christian.

Secondly:

It should be noted that I've always been a very logical person, I think I may be 1/4 Vulcan or something... anyway, maths, science etc make sense to me. Things have a logical order and using the basics of these you can make logical theories regarding the origins of the universe or whatever you fancy. The fact that religion, at it's very heart, is 100% illogical and almost fairytailesque I simply find it laughable. I'm sure if I'd been brought up in a christian environment I'd have also been brainwashed and would see things totally differently but I'm bloody glad I was left to make up my own mind.

If you really appreciate view points based on logic (I know I do) then you will have to question whether materialism is defeated by its own credentials because materialism doesn't allow logical and rational thinking. I can't explain in full detail this argument, if you want to find out then read C.S Lewis- Miracles, Chapter 3- The Cardinal Difficulty of Naturalism here

To summon it up very briefly,

1. If materialism is true then everything that exists is a physical event.

2. Every event has a physical cause and a physical effect.

3. Therefore mental events are physical events with a prior cause.

Therefore, no mental event has any justification in being true or correct because it is simply following a prior chain of uncontrolled events. It would be like trying to say a sneeze has meaning. Therefore, if materialism is true then logic and rational thinking (which are mental events) have no justification. Materialism is an argument that there are no such things as arguments. This is obviously nonsense.

In sum, to dismiss anything outside the realm of the physical (such as God) on the grounds of logic is actually completely self defeating. It is similar to people saying "The Bible is the word of God because is says so in the Bible"

(I guess this did turn into a long post!) If you don't believe in God, Christianity or any other religion then that’s fine. But, there are ignorant people on both sides and atheism (as a world view) does have its own problems (as does theism) and is by no means infallible. Read "Zeitgeist" or "The God Dellusion" (Dawkins) but if you are really open you should also read "God's Undertaker- Has Science Burried God" (J. Lennox) and "Miracles- A Premliminary Study" (C.S Lewis)

On my bookshelf, I have a copy of "The God Delusion" next to a copy of the Bible, don't think either authors would be too happy knowing that!

[Hannah Shucksmith]

No, I don't think everything in the bible is correct, as said so many pages back, I don't believe in half the stuff as written in the bible. So? And? That doesn't make me Christian? Ha. Yeah, I'm not exactly Dot Cotton, but I believe it, who's to say that I can't believe in some of the sentances but not the bloody others? I don't need to be a Nun to be a Christian for the sake of bloody Joseph! There's a bible next to my bed, I pray at night, I confess my sins, I help others, I attend Church, and you're telling me that to be a Christian I must not use contraception, not go within a foot of alcohol, never swear, not hate the way I look because God made me this way, I suppose I shouldn't eat meat aswell aye? Since an animal is a creation of God? I hate this debate so bloody much, you tell me I'm not a Christian because I refuse to believe that rape is allowed, as shown in Judges 21:10-24 and that it's perfectly okay to stone somebody to death?

No, I'm a Christian. Thanks.

†

Edited May 27, 2009 by Hannah Shucksmith

[Bronz]

Edit: On a more serious note, for those of you so adamant that the Big Bang was the cause of all existance, explain to me how? I'm not exactly a Scientist but the entire theory suggests that space is forever going to expand. If anyone can explain to me how space is expanding then I'd like to make my bedroom a little bigger.

It's like, "Full stop on the end of your sentance, capital letters at the beginning of a sentance, 1+1=2, 2+2=4, 3+3=6, the Spanish word for 'hello' is 'hola', Albert Einstein was a Jew, there are 30 days in September, oh, and by the way the entire universe and all that surrounds it came from an explosion of gasses and all your ancestors swung from trees and had blue arses."

Given the evidence and sound, yet-to-be-disproved theories for the big bang, don't you think it sounds just a tad more plausible than 'magic man dunnit'*.

*Robin Ince I think

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

In sum, to dismiss anything outside the realm of the physical (such as God) on the grounds of logic is actually completely self defeating. It is similar to people saying "The Bible is the word of God because is says so in the Bible"

I'm not quite sure if I'm following your argument, but it seems to be based on materialism being fact rather than a philosophy. Dark Matter, for example, has no concrete evidence for it (as yet), but it serves a purpose to explain how our Universe works and in doing so makes sense. We could've called Dark Matter god if we wanted because in itself it's a human creation to explain something we don't yet understand, but that would be foolish in itself. The existence of 'God', which is a purely human creation, serves no purpose except to try to comfort humans that there is something after death which is worth striving for during life.

the entire universe and all that surrounds it came from an explosion of gasses and all your ancestors swung from trees and had blue arses.

I don't understand how you can even start to question those things. Those are facts. The fact that the universe is expanding isn't exactly difficult to grasp- it started at a point and has since been accelerating outwards (into, I imagine, true nothingness) for about 14 billion years. You can see from skeletal remains how evolution has worked over millions of years...

[Nuke Bowel]

No, I don't think everything in the bible is correct, as said so many pages back, I don't believe in half the stuff as written in the bible. So? And? That doesn't make me Christian? Ha. Yeah, I'm not exactly Dot Cotton, but I believe it, who's to say that I can't believe in some of the sentances but not the bloody others? I don't need to be a Nun to be a Christian for the sake of bloody Joseph! There's a bible next to my bed, I pray at night, I confess my sins, I help others, I attend Church, and you're telling me that to be a Christian I must not use contraception, not go within a foot of alcohol, never swear, not hate the way I look because God made me this way, I suppose I shouldn't eat meat aswell aye? Since an animal is a creation of God? I hate this debate so bloody much, you tell me I'm not a Christian because I refuse to believe that rape is allowed, as shown in Judges 21:10-24 and that it's perfectly okay to stone somebody to death?

No, I'm a Christian. Thanks.

†

to be honest Hannah, I'd just leave them all to it

Sadly, for people who don't believe they find it hard to see what we do, because we see a happier life and only things that Christians can see.

Without God, my business wouldn't be here, trust.

It's easy for people to slate a religion, I have it alot, but at the end of the day, I'm happy, I believe, my girlfriend believes, and we both have good careers, all because god has helped us both along the way

I'm in here for no debate, all I can say is, youtube - Ken ham - The best bloke ever who will own any scientist

Edit: Big bang? Lol - I though the big bang was an apparent explosion, it's funny how I have yet to see an explosion in this world that creates beauty.

Edit 2 : Scientists keep changing they're opinion on the big bang, 'oh we found this' 'ah, actually it was like this' The bible has never changed guys, it has stayed the same, there's no need to change it cause evidence adds up, the big bang theory changed day by day, if you wanna believe something they can't make they're mind up on that's got to be a pretty sad life and I feel sorry for you

Edited May 27, 2009 by Nuke Bowel

[Hannah Shucksmith]

Given the evidence and sound, yet-to-be-disproved theories for the big bang, don't you think it sounds just a tad more plausible than 'magic man dunnit'*.

*Robin Ince I think

I have no bloody problem with the Big Bang Theory being studied, I don't care who debates it, looks deeper into it. Research, it's a good thing! Of course it's only right to research furthur into it. I'm just 16, I can't debate it really, I can't study it, look deeper into it, I can't research and I can't prove whether the theory is based on fact or if it really just is another theory. The reason for my disbelief in the theory is that it contradicts religion, is that any surprise? No. I dislike how the Creation Story is being replaced with the Big Bang theory, neither can be proved, only considered as correct to each individual. It has not been proven, it is not certain that the Big Bang actually occured, therefore it is actually potentially detrimental to even introduce it to a primary school child! No, I'm not suggesting that the theory should just be tossed aside and dismissed, I'm not suggesting that we should believe in God and Jesus and the Kings and the star and the bloody Inn; I just believe that we should all have our own beliefs, I'm not attempting to convert anyone to Christianty by constantly mentioning that the Big Bang theory has not been proved with any certainty.

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

I dislike how the Creation Story is being replaced with the Big Bang theory, neither can be proved

The creation story?! Well that certainly can't be proved because it's a complete fallacy! If you truly believe what is written in the first part of the bible (which should be enough to put any sensible off reading the rest of the book) then... I don't even know what to say. The Big Bang theory is not just a theory- the cause of the initial explosion is not yet understood but it is possible to measure the age of the Universe, the velocity and acceleration in which matter is expanding and is therefore undisputable. It's also proven to take a little longer than 7 days for the Earth to be 'created'. Likewise evolution, DNA profiling linking manatees with elephants, early homosapiens part way between ape and modern man. Again, these are facts.

The bible has never changed guys, it has stayed the same, there's no need to change it cause evidence adds up

And precisely what 'evidence' are you talking about? Or are we back to 'the bible says it so it's true'? Though actually I think you'll find that the bible has been changed a great deal over the years.

[Hannah Shucksmith]

The creation story?! Well that certainly can't be proved because it's a complete fallacy! If you truly believe what is written in the first part of the bible (which should be enough to put any sensible off reading the rest of the book) then... I don't even know what to say. The Big Bang theory is not just a theory- the cause of the initial explosion is not yet understood but it is possible to measure the age of the Universe, the velocity and acceleration in which matter is expanding and is therefore undisputable. It's also proven to take a little longer than 7 days for the Earth to be 'created'. Likewise evolution, DNA profiling linking manatees with elephants, early homosapiens part way between ape and modern man. Again, these are facts.

If it's possible to do all of that, PROVE to me yourself that the Big Bang occured, tell me why since the Big Bang, I've never seen a huge explosion in the sky, no one has, no one ever saw it to start with, no, Georges Lemaître came up with all the bull that could be apparently proved with Science, prove it to me Dave, don't tell me the creation story is crud if you can't even prove your own theory.

You believe in the Big Bang if you want to, I don't care, I'm happy with my beliefs, I'm not happy with the way people look down on others for having faith in something other than the periodic table and the theory of an explosion.

I might not be right, you might not be right, nothing's ever going to be correct until it's proven.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Hannah Shucksmith

[JD™]

The. After. Effects. Of. An. Explosion. Can. Be. Seen. And. Proven.

The reason you haven't seen another is it is the only one of it's kind - another one would wipe us all out...

PROVE to me, Hannah, that the world was created in 7 days and we didn't evolve from apes. If you can't prove your own, don't ask others to prove theirs.

[ZeroMatt]

Lol you seem to be trying to think of it like your precious bible, it is not gospel truth it is merely a THEORY tied to observed facts.

[Hannah Shucksmith]

The. After. Effects. Of. An. Explosion. Can. Be. Seen. And. Proven.

The reason you haven't seen another is it is the only one of it's kind - another one would wipe us all out...

PROVE to me, Hannah, that the world was created in 7 days and we didn't evolve from apes. If you can't prove your own, don't ask others to prove theirs.

Like I said, JD, No one's right till it's proven. Suppose you could kinda say the belief in the Big Bang is like a religion, yeah? I'm adamant in my belief in God, and like I said a few posts back, I don't want to dismiss the Big Bang Theory, research it, prove it's right.

Who knows, there could be God, there might not be. I'm a Christian, I'm happy, I'm staying this way. If it was proven to me that the Big Bang occured, I still wouldn't be able to dismiss my belief, because believing in God helps me so much, and I'd only begin to believe more that God is the reason behind the Big Bang. 16 years I've had faith, and I won't ever stop believing.

[Muel]

Theres actually lot of evidence to support the Big Bang theory if you care to look...

I like the whole idea behind having a god that built everything and makes us alright but I don't believe it, theres a lot of evidence to say that we evolved from animals and that the big bang happened, whereas the only evidence for the bible and god being true is mostly circumstantial.

Hannah, calm the f**k down. If you read the thread you'll see that this is a DISCUSSION, not people who believe science shitting on people with faith. No ones looking down on you, so stop being such a whiney teenager PLEASE. If you stopped for a moment you'd realise the only people who are being arsey with you are doing it because you have just been saying that science is bollocks and theres no proof at all because A: you havn't looked and B: you can't understand it.

There is so much evidence for the big bang theory that I have seen and read that I believe it completely. Theres no evidence to so that there wasn't a bloke called God sitting outside our "realm" that set it off, but obviously we can't prove that because we can't even see the edges of our universe.

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

prove it to me Dave, don't tell me the creation story is crud if you can't even prove your own theory.

Google 'Big Bang proof' and fill your boots. Basically due to 'red shift' we can PROVE that the universe is expanding. The age of the Universe has been measured and from this you can gather that over the past 16 billion years (or so) the Universe has expanded from a point source. Even the static you see on an untuned TV is evidence of the Big Bang.

So then, what's the proof for your magic man creating the Earth in 7 days and magicing man (and the odd talking snake of course) into existence from thin air?

If you read the thread you'll see that this is a DISCUSSION, not people who believe science shitting on people with faith.

[JD™]

I just want to add, after my previous post, that I am not actually opposed to the idea of there being a God. But I am certain it is not the Christian God. The God I would find easy to believe in would be the one that destroyed whatever was before this universe with the big bang. I would find it much easier to believe that the big bang was the end of the previous entity of existence and that it was the final move in a universe wide war.

In that way "God", to me, is just whatever was before what we know now.

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

Hostile takeover? I like it! I like the idea from Men In Black where we're just marbles in a far greater Universe that we can't even begin to comprehend...

[Tom_]

My own opinion, religion is for people who arent strong enough to face things on there own, they need the feeling of security that theres a giant dude stood watching them (and 6 billion onther people) simultaniously (with his 6 billion eyes?) Im an atheist, alwas have been, always will be. I was at a funeral the other day and realised it would have been a far easier experience to take had I belived in god, what with the bloke stood at the front talking about spending eternity with god, and that my grandfather would forever look down upon us until we were re-united. Sorry, but even that doesnt make me belive, once your gone. Your gone, again afterlife is just for people to scared to accept you dont go on forever in anyway.

Evolution is pretty much an entirely proven, and entirely solid theory (fact?) and the big bang again is pretty much deffinatly somthing that happened, rather than this giant bloke, floating in space with a tape measure, sculpting magic mud into a planet.... Why havent you seen another big bang? Because the conditions for it to happen, pretty much never happen (my understanding anyway?) we were just lucky as hell. There probably have been many of them, in other galaxies...

Sorry but IMO religion is utter bollocks.

[Muel]

I think idea that actually the universe expands then contracts again and crushes back down to nothing, then expands again.

Thing is, does this mean we are playing our lives out the same over and over again, or is it different each time it expands? Which comes back to the whole fate Vs choice argument.

Theres no way a dude made the planet and then just thought, "hmm, let there be horse", and there was horse. Theres way too much evidence for the Big Bang and evolution.