Is Anybody On Here A Hardcore Christian?

[manuel]

The reason that things dont add up is because its made up. Christianity adds up and doesnt have holes in it.

Scientists dont actualy re-evaluate things, they see a problem and make up some cock and bull story to fill it.

Saying that humans evolved from Monkeys and that changed to suit our enviroment is dumb, if its true why cant I grow furr all over my body in the winter? or grow realy tall so I can change a light bulb?

If humans and animals evolve, why dont seals grow realy thick skins and become super huge so they dont get clubbed all the time?

Humans have not evolved, they have simply learnt things. The Germans had plans for Rail Guns during WWII but never got a chance to make them, if we do evolve, why did not the next generation of Gremans have the knowledge to build them, why has it taken 60 years to only build a gun that can shoot around corners with out exposing youreslf?

And, why do I not have the same knowledge as Albert Einstien? he was brainy shouldnt I have evolved to know what he did?

And why dont humans evolve to have complete knowledge when they are first born?

Its all just the order in which we learn stuff.

Holy shit.

Most likely black, too

No Luke you are wrong - Jesus was a white man from Cambridge...

[Al_Fel]

I'd really like to hear about what argument is the basis for theists deciding the universe hasn't just always been. That existence has always been makes the most sense to me. It seems especially real when we begin to realise time as a construct. We tend to think of the experience of time as the movement along a line which posesses a beginning, a middle and an end. Yet this is a fairly modern conception of time which arose at the beginning of the Industrial era in association with the philosophies of progression. Concepts of time have differed over time and even include a circular form. With this linear conception of time underlying our reasoning though, we naturally look for a beginning or start point. However, it is actually possible to view existence as a constant present, with everything manifesting from the same moment. Rather than each moment, a kind of new one like the difference between 1 + 2 or 5 + 6. This is because we are always experiencing the same existence depsite any changes within that same existence. Think about this in the sense that there is no such thing as a past or future except as an idea about those things. I can think about the past or the future but never live them - they remain only thoughts in the present, which I can live within. The way we map/model (time) changes in the same existence seems to have considerably confused us.

This is realisable if we manage to drop the relative conception of time that we are currently all using. It is doable because I have done it.

Pretty much what I was trying to say. I haven't got the skills to get my point across very well though. I don't think the human brain wants to think that infinity can go both ways. I think this might be because we have developed this concept of time which doesn't exist. If everything hasn't always existed where did it come from?

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

The human brain definitely has constraints for its understanding of infinity. but there are many different ways of interpreting it, somtimes it is hard to contemplate the infinitely big and the infinitely small, but the infinite just means it goes on forever, it doesn't actually dictate size as such.

Religion has never allowed me to fully understand the universe, neither has science, but the two fit together in quite a beautiful way, even without subscribing to any formally recognised opinions on the matter.

Ben, if you suffer a huge ego death and manage to lose the concept of time, you will probably find enlightenment in there, being so detatched from the constructs of reality allows you to think more clearly, but it'd be interesting to see if you can achieve the same goals withough making yourself a pariah from society.

[1a2bcio8]

Pretty much what I was trying to say. I haven't got the skills to get my point across very well though. I don't think the human brain wants to think that infinity can go both ways. I think this might be because we have developed this concept of time which doesn't exist. If everything hasn't always existed where did it come from?

Yep, it makes the question a lot easier to solve (dispell even). How the hell do we go about trying to answer the creation of existence?!?

Well, either create a separate superbeing (god as an entity not a realisation) or suggest it randomly came from nothing. Both are massively more complicated/confusing than the idea that our useful way of dealing with existence (creating a certain concept of time) has been used in the wrong place. Time is an appropriate way for organising ourselves with the changes in an ever-present but is not appropriate in considering the fundamental nature of existence. It's like trying to knit a jumper with two monkey spanners. You're not going to end up with something that fits.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Ben Rowlands

[Guest]

In response to bol maaaaang's reply, God gave us the person who invented clothes .

[1a2bcio8]

The human brain definitely has constraints for its understanding of infinity. but there are many different ways of interpreting it, somtimes it is hard to contemplate the infinitely big and the infinitely small, but the infinite just means it goes on forever, it doesn't actually dictate size as such.

Religion has never allowed me to fully understand the universe, neither has science, but the two fit together in quite a beautiful way, even without subscribing to any formally recognised opinions on the matter.

Ben, if you suffer a huge ego death and manage to lose the concept of time, you will probably find enlightenment in there, being so detatched from the constructs of reality allows you to think more clearly, but it'd be interesting to see if you can achieve the same goals withough making yourself a pariah from society.

Infinity in the sense that I best know doesn't mean either very big or very small but means before units. Humans looks onto their existence and break it down into units. A cat, a rug, a wheel, etc. but before they do that, it is infinite, non-finite or afinite. Existence is numberless until we assign it numbers. When Blake saw "Infinity in a grain of sand", he saw its true (existing) nature which was numberless and with additional importance, without conception. All is existence and all is the same existence in a very numberless sense.

I would say that if religion hasn't offered you any understanding yet, it may be because you haven't practiced any of it rather than simply just reading or hearing about it. In this sense, it is similar to saying that snowboarding hasn't offered me any fun yet although I've only ever read or heard about it.

Mystical practices do place you at risk from alienation in a certain sense but paradoxically allign you with others on a more fundamental and massively more rewarding level. What goals did you have in mind though? I'm slightly unsure about your last statement.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Ben Rowlands

[beigemaster]

Face of Jesus

Obviously I will write a longer post once I have the time to read and take in what people have discussed. Honestly, drop out of this thread for a little while and it could be anywhere!

[Al_Fel]

Bongo

Jesus

Nuff said.

[beigemaster]

Just needs to grow a beard and you could be on to something there!

[F-Stop Junkie]

If you follow big bang theory (backed up by nice, sturdy physics) then the idea of a universe essentially concertinering back and forth in and out of existance is pretty clear. We then get into "What is the universe contained in?"

I think the universe is a bit like a bubble, existing briefly before vanishing - of course existing to us for millions of years....

Now, to that twonk who was wondering why we don't grow fur, the simple answer is natural selection. Humans find people less hairy to be generally more attractive, so less hairy people breed more copiously, and hence we are becoming increasingly hairless. It ain't God, it's humans.

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

twonk

A much underused word these days.

"It's a blatant clue, innit, blatant!"

[F-Stop Junkie]

Its impossible to change your physical make up to change your surroundings

If you live somewhere where all the food is on high trees, wouldn't humans in that area all either be really tall, or really able to climb trees?

if you could people would have cottoned on to that durring battle camoflauge is extremely important and they would have changed there apperance to become camoflauged.

And battle has been hapening since for thousands of years, so they could of been evolving over that time.

But has it happended? No people just were camoflauged clothing.

But humans evolve differently to other animals because we look after each other, create tools, but we do evolve. We tend not to exist in some survival of the fittest though.

If an early human had develeoped a mutation which allowed them to be naturally cammoflaged, then they'd have had a natural advantage, killed the non-cammo people, and had lots of cammo babies. That's natural selection. The thing is you don't evolve in once generation, you evolve in hundreds of generations. For example, people now are talled than those around 0AD. This is scientific fact. We are evolving to be taller (and potentially run faster, be stronger) because humans consider this a good trait.

Evolution does happen, but not in you, it's who you breed with, and who your kids breed with, and so on...

The other thing is that the human population is so large and diverse that one person with a mutation can not easily or quickly become dominant in some way. Scientists have predicted that in the future the colour of skin across all humans will eventually merge into a single caramel colour as we cross-breed.

[ManxTrialSpaz]

As an example for the tit that clearly doesn't get evolution; look at black people.

We'll take Africa for example. Now, you could either say that God put black people there, white people here, yellow people just round here etc. Or, you could say that white people living in the plains of Africa tended to die from skin cancer. Now, we know our body's response to UV rays is melanin. A dark pigment in our skin which absorbs UV rays to stop them from mutating our DNA. This is where a tan comes from in the summer: melanin being released into the skin.

So, in Africa, harsh open plains of sun and UV rays, people with low melanin levels would have quickly been killed by UV rays where people with higher levels of melanin lived longer. As such, they bred more until you reached a breed of people with melanin levels so high they are always black.

That, in a very basic form is evolution right there. And it required no intervention from a higher power.

Edited June 8, 2009 by ManxTrialSpaz

[Al_Fel]

As an example for the tit that clearly doesn't get evolution; look at black people.

We'll take Africa for example. Now, you could either say that God put black people there, white people here, yellow people just round here etc. Or, you could say that white people living in the plains of Africa tended to die from skin cancer. Now, we know our body's response to UV rays is melanin. A dark pigment in our skin which absorbs UV rays to stop them from mutating our DNA. This is where a tan comes from in the summer: melanin being released into the skin.

So, in Africa, harsh open plains of sun and UV rays, people with low melanin levels would have quickly been killed by UV rays where people with higher levels of melanin lived longer. As such, they bred more until you reached a breed of people with melanin levels so high they are always black.

That, in a very basic form is evolution right there. And it required no intervention from a higher power.

For some reason I had it in my head that people were already black when they evolved from monkeys (look at the colour of a monkeys skin) and when they started moving away from Africa there was more chance of the lighter coloured people to survive in the not so hot weather conditions.

[1a2bcio8]

If you follow big bang theory (backed up by nice, sturdy physics) then the idea of a universe essentially concertinering back and forth in and out of existance is pretty clear. We then get into "What is the universe contained in?"

I think the universe is a bit like a bubble, existing briefly before vanishing - of course existing to us for millions of years....

Now, to that twonk who was wondering why we don't grow fur, the simple answer is natural selection. Humans find people less hairy to be generally more attractive, so less hairy people breed more copiously, and hence we are becoming increasingly hairless. It ain't God, it's humans.

I think we need to distinguish between matter within the universe and, the universe as a whole/existence. I may be wrong but I don't think physicists talk of existence contracting and expanding but rather that matter (planets, etc.), within existence (or space), is contracting and expanding. We could only know of the entirity of existence contracting and expanding if we knew of some observable border surrounding existence that showed space to be contracting and expanding. We can only measure space relative to observable events such as matter. I don't think that any such border is known about though and it brings up all sorts of confusing problems to do with what is that which exists outside of existence? For instance, to vanish means that there must still be something present (some kind of existence) to display the fact that we have vanished. We can't be left with no existence because, confusingly, there is no such thing as no existence. It is an abstract idea that we have created. Everything is existence so existence is all there can be.

This thread is addictive. I'm spending too much time in here

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

look at the colour of a monkeys skin

Depends on the monkey...

[Al_Fel]

This thread is addictive. I'm spending too much time in here

I know what you mean man. I just wish it was all of us sat in a room talking about it with a few shandy's. I find that kind of environment much easier to get my point across.

[adamtrials]

When you were at Church, did you see miricals or anything? If you didnt, that could be why you dont buy into it, if you did, thats your choice and I respect that.

As an organist I've sat through hundreds of services in more churches that I can remember and never seen anything remotely miraculous except for my main man Roland downing goblet after goblet of holy wine and still managing to do the rest of the service...

I don't think english churches are full of the miracle crap that american ones sound like they are from what you're saying, there's a lot of happy people but that's it.

[1a2bcio8]

The other thing is that the human population is so large and diverse that one person with a mutation can not easily or quickly become dominant in some way.

This is a very interesting point in the sense that, in terms of natural selection, we've removed ourselves from the type of environmental effects that allow for certain gene types to become dominant. In the developed countries at least, we're not really at threat from much with which a dominant gene can prosper from. We've also overiden a lot of instinctual behavioural traits in a way that changes rapidly over time through cultures meaning that not one trait is really beneficial in any sense for long enough to become dominant. What constitues a good mate is a lot more relative over time and space. Consider how much what has been considered an attractive body type has changed throughout just the last one hundred years in western culture. Our evolution, in a slightly differing sense, is now in our own hands with the ideas we have and technology we develop.

Of course, I don't entirely subscribe to the idea evolution as a form of mutational pot luck. We certainly seem to be heading in a direction of higher complexity, which might be explained by some kind of prior 'intent', although I certainly don't mean the type of intent that a human might have but a variation of.

I know what you mean man. I just wish it was all of us sat in a room talking about it with a few shandy's. I find that kind of environment much easier to get my point across.

It would be nice

Edited June 8, 2009 by Ben Rowlands

[casualjoe]

Ive been told an evolutionary mutation has occurred in our very own generation. That our thumbs have become much more agile and dexterous due to playing video games and other electronic things.

And yes, existance is the most mind bogglingly interesting thing ever, all I can come up with is 'Life is amazin I'm so happy to be here and feel privilaged to be able to think about it in this way'

Edited June 8, 2009 by casualjoe

[Muel]

It's been a while since I've had a chance to read in here properly, just had a good chuckle at Mr Religion USA, especially this bit:

The reason that things dont add up is because its made up. Christianity adds up and doesnt have holes in it.

Scientists dont actualy re-evaluate things, they see a problem and make up some cock and bull story to fill it.

Saying that humans evolved from Monkeys and that changed to suit our enviroment is dumb, if its true why cant I grow furr all over my body in the winter? or grow realy tall so I can change a light bulb?

If humans and animals evolve, why dont seals grow realy thick skins and become super huge so they dont get clubbed all the time?

Never read anything about evolution have you? It's not like pokemon, it's not like a Rocky montage, it's called natural selection.

Take giraffes, the short ones couldn't reach the leaves on the trees they ate, the tall ones could, so the short ones died and the tall ones lived long enough to breed, and the cycle kept repeating until you get giraffes as they are now. Imagine what they look like in another few thousand years!

[Al_Fel]

A clear case of humans playing with evolution.

God didn't make these cows the way they are humans did it.

[ilikeriding]

"The reason that things dont add up is because its made up. Christianity adds up and doesnt have holes in it.

Scientists dont actualy re-evaluate things, they see a problem and make up some cock and bull story to fill it.

Saying that humans evolved from Monkeys and that changed to suit our enviroment is dumb, if its true why cant I grow furr all over my body in the winter? or grow realy tall so I can change a light bulb?

If humans and animals evolve, why dont seals grow realy thick skins and become super huge so they dont get clubbed all the time?

Humans have not evolved, they have simply learnt things. The Germans had plans for Rail Guns during WWII but never got a chance to make them, if we do evolve, why did not the next generation of Gremans have the knowledge to build them, why has it taken 60 years to only build a gun that can shoot around corners with out exposing youreslf?

And, why do I not have the same knowledge as Albert Einstien? he was brainy shouldnt I have evolved to know what he did?

And why dont humans evolve to have complete knowledge when they are first born?

Its all just the order in which we learn stuff. "

lol

Out of curiosity what are your qualifications and stuff what job do you do?

Ive been told an evolutionary mutation has occurred in our very own generation. That our thumbs have become much more agile and dexterous due to playing video games and other electronic things.

And yes, existance is the most mind bogglingly interesting thing ever, all I can come up with is 'Life is amazin I'm so happy to be here and feel privilaged to be able to think about it in this way'

nah doesnt work like that, the characteristic must improve the chance of survival and reproduction... must already be in your genes also

Edited June 8, 2009 by ilikeriding

[F-Stop Junkie]

Out of curiosity what are your qualifications and stuff what job do you do?

I'm guessing school teacher maybe, or Alaskian Senator.

[casualjoe]

Yes humans have learnt things, but it is not simple process. I think learning and evolution are linked in some way, most notably in human evolution. Nature is changing, whatever humans do is still natural as we coexist with other forms of life (a sort of newskool nature) so developing technology and scientific research is now part of nature.

Edited June 8, 2009 by casualjoe