Is Anybody On Here A Hardcore Christian?

[JT!]

Knowing what Dave usually posts on here he was probably wanting to ask them whether the bible explains which way pedals screw into the cranks on his Monty. That or he's already forgotten what he wanted to ask...

[Davetrials]

Knowing what Dave usually posts on here he was probably wanting to ask them whether the bible explains which way pedals screw into the cranks on his Monty. That or he's already forgotten what he wanted to ask...

Liking the telescopes point Rowan .

I found one at college, he called me a p rick, i called him a c unt. i may have been in a bad mood atm the time so it was as structured as it could have been.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Davetrials

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

I found one at college, he called me a p rick, i called him a c unt. i may have been in a bad mood atm the time so it was as structured as it could have been.

Haha, like it . Diplomacy a its best .

[ilikeriding]

When somebody engages in one of the various practices we find in Buddhism, Hinduism, Sufism, Christian Mysticism and so on, they begin to perceive reality in different ways. Sometimes these differences in perception are to such an extent that they are given different labels. Although rather than perceptions they are usually called realisations. One reason for this is to distinguish them from working something out (constructing an idea or model of reality). Another reason is because these perceptions are felt to be (usually) closer aproximations to the nature of reality. An apt "realisation" or perception for me to discuss is that which is called "emptiness" ("samadhi" in Buddhism and "gezucken" to Meister Eckhart in Christian Mysticism). Within this realisation or perception, the process of dividing the world up into parts (dualism) falls away and the perceiver is left with a 'oneness'. They or that which they experience is no longer separate but the same as them. Unfortunately words really don't do justice to this realisation. They mostly confuse matters although they make, at the very least, a rudimentry indication of what's going on. The point is that this realisation isn't even a "oneness" because to have one, we must have another and that requires dualism, which as I said, we have gotten rid of*. To perhaps put it a bit better, the breaking of the world into bits has gone and because there aren't any bits, there can't be one bit - the bit that we might otherwise call the whole perception or realisation. So, when we say "oneness" we don't mean anything that there is one of. Instead, we have an abstraction (or abstract word) to indicate a type of numberless realisation. However, and here is the crux, misunderstanding the absence of dualism (of no bits in our perception) can lead us to imagine that there is an entity of some sort - some kind of "one" or "oneness". But there isn't. This is where I think the great misconception has occured within religion and those whom oppose it. God is simply another type of realisation albeit the highest form. But because to pretty much everyone, this realisation isn't instantlly attainable (it is with practice and commitment), they naturally place the realisation in terms they understand and which the language most potentially suggests - an entity of some sort. In Hinduism, "God" (or Brahman) is the highest form of realisation. We also see "God" realisation refered to in Buddhism, Occultism, Sufism, etc. God is also clearly the highest form in Christianity, except unfortunately he's the sphere who's incorrectly been divided from the football. He's no longer a realisation but an entity.

What is great about this concept if that you can actually find out for yourself what it discusses. The metaphysical conception of god as residing separately to our existence is difficult to deal with - atheist or theist alike. This approach allows through practice, the realisations that are refered to, to be attained. I challenge anybody to give chance to an idea of God that is novel to them but mostly I dare anyone to try finding this stuff out, first hand, for themselves

*To have one, we must also have another because each gives the possibilty of the other. This is always dependent on that, much in the same way each side of a coin is dependent on the other side. They cannot exist without each other.

I think your relying too heavily on religious language and the comparison between the religious believer's interpretation of say being one with god and the actual definition of being one with.

you think religious belief is just a different realization of the world being 'as one' kind of transformed into the idea that there is a god? hmm

then with the stuff about dualism people stop making a distinction between things, everything is seen as one entity? I cant see a person with those beliefs being useful for anything

For me god is constructed by an ordered society so as to keep it that way or as a simple ignorance, say if someone prays to god, next day they get what they want, they are conditioned/reinforced into repeating this behavior.

My explanation for belief in god in the past is also ignorance: people being amazed at the sunrise ect. but not having the means to understand it would formulate ideas such as the existence of god in conjection with my other two ideas to have a false belief of having some control over things of power in their environment.

Religion could also be evolutionary... people with such beliefs group together ensuring survival and reproduction.. if the basis is genetic the gene is passed on that makes it likley for future generations to behave similarly.

There are too many observable explanations similar to those that contradict looser explanations of religion to justify reading the bible.

Edited June 4, 2009 by ilikeriding

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

Religion could also be evolutionary... people with such beliefs group together ensuring survival and reproduction.. if the basis is genetic the gene is passed on that makes it likley for future generations to behave similarly.

There are too many observable explanations similar to those that contradict looser explanations of religion to justify reading the bible.

Are you speculating that believing in a religion is predetermined by your genes?

That last sentence really lost me.

[1a2bcio8]

I think your relying too heavily on religious language and the comparison between the religious believer's interpretation of say being one with god and the actual definition of being one with.

To the extent that I am using religious language, in the first instance, I'm unsure how this is important against the idea I am putting forward? In the second, as the discussion is centred around religion, this is somewhat inescapable. In fact, I was mentioning the different names, from different religions, to show that they refered to the same realisation, despite superficial differences in name. They are all synonyms. It adds an important argument for the perennial philosophy when we see that regardless of time/place/culture, certain things can be realized in response to what it means to be a human that exists.

I'm also not relying on religious language in the sense that my discussion has some founding in personal experience, in the fact that I have touched on some mystical experience and know the potential for perceptual shifts/realisations. This is a very important part of my argument. Unlike the conception of God we find most people subscribing to, this conception allows for you to actually test it...

I would say that interpretation is all too essential a thing to consider in this context when the initial inerpretation, operating as a foundation to a religion, defines how everybody consequently responds to the respective religion. This is evident with the discussion we see here which takes as the foundation, god as an entity and not an abstraction for a perception.

you think religious belief is just a different realization of the world being 'as one' kind of transformed into the idea that there is a god? hmm

Kind've a one but infinite is perhaps a better term. Personally I prefer my own coinage, afinite - not within any kind of finite terms. Essentially this is a realisation of the fundamental existence that pervades everything (which isn't actually things in this sense). The groundless ground (Brahman (God)) as the hindu's might say.

And yes, I am suggesting that the current concept of god which people are using is a misconception. God is not a thing, god is a type of perception about the fundamental nature of existence.

then with the stuff about dualism people stop making a distinction between things, everything is seen as one entity? I cant see a person with those beliefs being useful for anything

Again, not really as "one entity" but this is closer than many entities - it's 'somewhat' further away from dualism. Infinite (but not meaning lots of) or afinite realisation is the consequence of dropping dualistic perception.

To begin with, these are not beliefs. These are actual experiences/perceptions/realisations. Beliefs are concepts and although initially we must deal with concepts to indicate these experiences/perceptions/realisations, ultimately we must go beyond them. When we drop dualism, we no longer believe anything because conception requires dualism. Thus, in this state, belief is not an option.

Although I would not describe them in terms of usefulness I would say that they represent, in terms of the core issues of being human, the most important kind of realisation. Dualism is the basis greed, hate, fear, etc. As long as there is the other, we will desire that other, will fear that other and so. Once we realise the sameness of of everything or in actual fact the delusion of fundamental difference of everything, we have no need to desire the other, to fear the other other, or hate the other. Why would I fear that which I am? This is when we feel peace and love, which is a natural and undivided consequence of such a realisation. All the 'issues' and 'problems' of being human prior to this point are no more. Death is no longer an issue when we realise we always have been and always will be. Existence is just a shifting sameness of which we all are.

For me god is constructed by an ordered society so as to keep it that way or as a simple ignorance, say if someone prays to god, next day they get what they want, they are conditioned/reinforced into repeating this behavior.

Well, that's quite cynical and to be fair, I expect that often, and to varying degrees, this does happen with religion. People, like with every other social system, have often used religion to thier own advantage and I'm in no way out to defend all of it. What I will defend is that I think it arises from certain people having certain realisations and their being fundmental issues with being human/existing which those realisations help with. You can either sit on your concepts, juggle them round, speculate, etc. or you can actually try to confirm what I'm saying with direct experience. Although to be fair this path does take a lot of hard work and commitment, which is not for everyone.

My explanation for belief in god in the past is also ignorance: people being amazed at the sunrise ect. but not having the means to understand it would formulate ideas such as the existence of god in conjection with my other two ideas to have a false belief of having some control over things of power in their environment.

Yeah definitely. We are always trying to explain things, filling in the blanks with what seems sensible to us at a given time. No doubt we are all doing something similar at present that will be just as laughable to those in the future. Previously in the "magical" era of human existence, we used to draw our prey being hunted with the belief that the image would then bear true in the real hunt. In essence, there was a belief that the two were deeply connected.

Religion could also be evolutionary... people with such beliefs group together ensuring survival and reproduction.. if the basis is genetic the gene is passed on that makes it likley for future generations to behave similarly.

We certainly might be able to describe religion in terms of evolutionary functionalism but I think you're risking falling into the trap that you recognised in your previous statement. Especially with the consideration of religion as I describe it, in it's core sense, relating to the fundmantal perceptions/realisations. It's all to easy to just reduce and slot religion into a means of survival arising through genetic mutation as a convenience for describing it. It's quite easy to come up with ideas of how something has an evolutionary function but it's certainly not scientific to do so and so doesn't really come with the support of science.

There are too many observable explanations similar to those that contradict looser explanations of religion to justify reading the bible.

I'm unsure if this is a general statement or one directed at me? I'm certainly not trying to get anyone to read the bible. I'm only offering an alternate way of thinking about religion and perhaps most importantly, but that which I doubt anyone will probably do, the offering of a means to find out for yourself. Although even I hold some reservation to the experiences and ideas I have. But we all have to work on likelidhood otherwise life would be unmanagable.

I shall finish by saying that the arrogance contained in your describing people as losers suggests another kind of certainty like those who believe in God (as an entity) are criticsed for. At the end of the day, experential evidence for God or no God is about the same. Atheism = just another belief. Modesty might be a worthy approach.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Ben Rowlands

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

the arrogance contained in your describing people as losers

I thought he was saying 'looser explanations' as in, less strict?

[1a2bcio8]

I thought he was saying 'looser explanations' as in, less strict?

haha, my bad

and my apologies

Edited June 4, 2009 by Ben Rowlands

[Scotty Evil1]

Me and my dad were just talking about this, after some jehovah witness's were walking down the street.

Came up with a few points-No real proof about this God bloke.The bible was written hundreds of years after Jesus was ment to have done all his stuff ( i cant remember what someone told me yesterday, so i dont see how they can remember word for word what happend hundreds of years ago).

The main point we came up with, was, prove it. If someone can prove to me the bible wasnt just a thousand year old version of harry potter, then i would take notice of it.

Youtube Video -> Original Video

[ilikeriding]

To the extent that I am using religious language, in the first instance, I'm unsure how this is important against the idea I am putting forward? In the second, as the discussion is centred around religion, this is somewhat inescapable. In fact, I was mentioning the different names, from different religions, to show that they refered to the same realisation, despite superficial differences in name. They are all synonyms. It adds an important argument for the perennial philosophy when we see that regardless of time/place/culture, certain things can be realized in response to what it means to be a human that exists.

I'm also not relying on religious language in the sense that my discussion has some founding in personal experience, in the fact that I have touched on some mystical experience and know the potential for perceptual shifts/realisations. This is a very important part of my argument. Unlike the conception of God we find most people subscribing to, this conception allows for you to actually test it...

I would say that interpretation is all too essential a thing to consider in this context when the initial inerpretation, operating as a foundation to a religion, defines how everybody consequently responds to the respective religion. This is evident with the discussion we see here which takes as the foundation, god as an entity and not an abstraction for a perception.

Kind've a one but infinite is perhaps a better term. Personally I prefer my own coinage, afinite - not within any kind of finite terms. Essentially this is a realisation of the fundamental existence that pervades everything (which isn't actually things in this sense). The groundless ground (Brahman (God)) as the hindu's might say.

And yes, I am suggesting that the current concept of god which people are using is a misconception. God is not a thing, god is a type of perception about the fundamental nature of existence.

Again, not really as "one entity" but this is closer than many entities - it's 'somewhat' further away from dualism. Infinite (but not meaning lots of) or afinite realisation is the consequence of dropping dualistic perception.

To begin with, these are not beliefs. These are actual experiences/perceptions/realisations. Beliefs are concepts and although initially we must deal with concepts to indicate these experiences/perceptions/realisations, ultimately we must go beyond them. When we drop dualism, we no longer believe anything because conception requires dualism. Thus, in this state, belief is not an option.

Although I would not describe them in terms of usefulness I would say that they represent, in terms of the core issues of being human, the most important kind of realisation. Dualism is the basis greed, hate, fear, etc. As long as there is the other, we will desire that other, will fear that other and so. Once we realise the sameness of of everything or in actual fact the delusion of fundamental difference of everything, we have no need to desire the other, to fear the other other, or hate the other. Why would I fear that which I am? This is when we feel peace and love, which is a natural and undivided consequence of such a realisation. All the 'issues' and 'problems' of being human prior to this point are no more. Death is no longer an issue when we realise we always have been and always will be. Existence is just a shifting sameness of which we all are.

Well, that's quite cynical and to be fair, I expect that often, and to varying degrees, this does happen with religion. People, like with every other social system, have often used religion to thier own advantage and I'm in no way out to defend all of it. What I will defend is that I think it arises from certain people having certain realisations and their being fundmental issues with being human/existing which those realisations help with. You can either sit on your concepts, juggle them round, speculate, etc. or you can actually try to confirm what I'm saying with direct experience. Although to be fair this path does take a lot of hard work and commitment, which is not for everyone.

Yeah definitely. We are always trying to explain things, filling in the blanks with what seems sensible to us at a given time. No doubt we are all doing something similar at present that will be just as laughable to those in the future. Previously in the "magical" era of human existence, we used to draw our prey being hunted with the belief that the image would then bear true in the real hunt. In essence, there was a belief that the two were deeply connected.

We certainly might be able to describe religion in terms of evolutionary functionalism but I think you're risking falling into the trap that you recognised in your previous statement. Especially with the consideration of religion as I describe it, in it's core sense, relating to the fundmantal perceptions/realisations. It's all to easy to just reduce and slot religion into a means of survival arising through genetic mutation as a convenience for describing it. It's quite easy to come up with ideas of how something has an evolutionary function but it's certainly not scientific to do so and so doesn't really come with the support of science.

I'm unsure if this is a general statement or one directed at me? I'm certainly not trying to get anyone to read the bible. I'm only offering an alternate way of thinking about religion and perhaps most importantly, but that which I doubt anyone will probably do, the offering of a means to find out for yourself. Although even I hold some reservation to the experiences and ideas I have. But we all have to work on likelidhood otherwise life would be unmanagable.

I shall finish by saying that the arrogance contained in your describing people as losers suggests another kind of certainty like those who believe in God (as an entity) are criticsed for. At the end of the day, experential evidence for God or no God is about the same. Atheism = just another belief. Modesty might be a worthy approach.

I think i misinterpreted some of what you said, it seemed to me like you were playing on the words being at one with and translating that into a belief in one god, not gonna lie I dont find it easy deciphering your way of putting things... can you clarify how i would go about testing this with a different conception of reality to your own?

"God is not a thing, god is a type of perception about the fundamental nature of existence." yup agreed.

"For me god is constructed by an ordered society so as to keep it that way or as a simple ignorance, say if someone prays to god, next day they get what they want, they are conditioned/reinforced into repeating this behavior."

I was talking about that in a biblical sense just generally, i think there is allot of evidence for this

About my point about evolution yeah I have no means of testing it but proof may lie in evidence of sucessful civilizations that have had a religious society, it would not be a totally controlling factor but together with my other points it would have substantial effect

[ilikeriding]

Are you speculating that believing in a religion is predetermined by your genes?

That last sentence really lost me.

Yeah i think your genes could give you a susceptibility to be convinced of things that have less logical basis than contradictory ideas, for example someone with a very low IQ may be persuaded that the seeds in a banana are tarantula eggs whereas someone with a high IQ is less likely too. Of course I'm not saying religious believers are not as clever as atheists or anyone else, just things like that would play a part in becoming religious.

Say 200 years ago there was no contraception this would lead to sexually transmitted diseases spreading easily. A christian principle is no sex before marriage. If this was followed Christians would be far less likely to get such diseases, these Christians may have brain chemistry that tended them to be worried more than others so for them to stay out of hell they would obey this principle, producing a greater number of children with similar brain chemistry as opposed to non christian believers who did not care and were willing to risk disease which would make them less of the population

this is just an example in actuality this may happen in alot of different ways but overall i think people would have benefitted more from practicing religion, it may also have made them happier people knowing there was an afterlife... less liklley to get depression ect...

however just an opinion id say 10% evolutionary 90% environmental factors

Edited June 4, 2009 by ilikeriding

[1a2bcio8]

I think i misinterpreted some of what you said, it seemed to me like you were playing on the words being at one with and translating that into a belief in one god, not gonna lie I dont find it easy deciphering your way of putting things... can you clarify how i would go about testing this with a different conception of reality to your own?

"God is not a thing, god is a type of perception about the fundamental nature of existence." yup agreed.

"For me god is constructed by an ordered society so as to keep it that way or as a simple ignorance, say if someone prays to god, next day they get what they want, they are conditioned/reinforced into repeating this behavior."

I was talking about that in a biblical sense just generally, i think there is allot of evidence for this

About my point about evolution yeah I have no means of testing it but proof may lie in evidence of sucessful civilizations that have had a religious society, it would not be a totally controlling factor but together with my other points it would have substantial effect

Okay, furry muff. And I'm sorry my descriptions aren't better. I think my style has been unconsciously influenced by what I read and I often whinge to myself about those styles.

There are various ways of coming to perceive/realise what I describe. This can actually happen spontaneously, regardless of religion or some kind of practice. Most commonly though, there are a variety of meditation practices that will lead to these types of experience. However, these commonly involve a lot of commitment and effort. My experience so far indicates that yoga and buddhist methods are very effective. Although I will state that I do not entirely subscribe to either of these systems. Another method is flotation tanks which were utilized by Dr. John Lilly. This guy tried to reduce mystical/religious experiences into scientific/computer terms and has written a number of books all about it. Flotation tanks are supposed to get you 'there' a lot faster because you don't have to learn to ignore so much outside stimulus as with normal meditation/yoga but the flotation tank instead cuts you off from light, sound and to a certain degree, gravity and kinesthetic (bodily) sensations. I've personally never tried a flotation tank but will hopefully build one, one day. Finally, drugs can offer, albeit in a much less stable fashion, these types of experience. I wouldn't recommend these unless you are of a very stable mind and even then they come with some risks. I admit this last approach despite the fact for some people it will probably invalidate the rest of my argument. However, I will mention that the point of these practices is to achieve perceptions that rid us of the problems of being human. This can definitely happen with drugs but it's short lived, unstable and less predictable. In fact, the mention of drugs goes some way to grounding the philosophy I put forward, away from metaphysical entities such as that bearded chap in the clouds. The drugs I would recommend in this sense, providing you approach them with a medatitive and contemplative state of mind, are cannabis, LSD, 2CB and mushrooms. All of these will lead to shifts in perception. Some of them will feel less real to your normal perception but some of them will make the previous perception you held seem less real and even deluded.

If you want more specific details about specific books, schools of yoga/buddhism etc. because you are seriously interested, then message me

Edited June 4, 2009 by Ben Rowlands

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

Ah, ok- makes sense .

[ilikeriding]

Okay, furry muff. And I'm sorry my descriptions aren't better. I think my style has been unconsciously influenced by what I read and I often whinge to myself about those styles.

There are various ways of coming to perceive/realise what I describe. This can actually happen spontaneously, regardless of religion or some kind of practice. Most commonly though, there are a variety of meditation practices that will lead to these types of experience. However, these commonly involve a lot of commitment and effort. My experience so far indicates that yoga and buddhist methods are very effective. Although I will state that I do not entirely subscribe to either of these systems. Another method is flotation tanks which were utilized by Dr. John Lilly. This guy tried to reduce mystical/religious experiences into scientific/computer terms and has written a number of books all about it. Flotation tanks are supposed to get you 'there' a lot faster because you don't have to learn to ignore so much outside stimulus as with normal meditation/yoga but the flotation tank instead cuts you off from light, sound and to a certain degree, gravity and kinesthetic (bodily) sensations. I've personally never tried a flotation tank but will hopefully build one, one day. Finally, drugs can offer, albeit in a much less stable fashion, these types of experience. I wouldn't recommend these unless you are of a very stable mind and even then they come with some risks. I admit this last approach despite the fact for some people it will probably invalidate the rest of my argument. However, I will mention that the point of these practices is to achieve perceptions that rid us of the problems of being human. This can definitely happen with drugs but it's short lived, unstable and less predictable. In fact, the mention of drugs goes some way to grounding the philosophy I put forward, away from metaphysical entities such as that bearded chap in the clouds. The drugs I would recommend in this sense, providing you approach them with a medatitive and contemplative state of mind, are cannabis, LSD, 2CB and mushrooms. All of these will lead to shifts in perception. Some of them will feel less real to your normal perception but some of them will make the previous perception you held seem less real and even deluded.

If you want more specific details about specific books, schools of yoga/buddhism etc. because you are seriously interested, then message me

using techniques like that... i wonder whether it gives you a greater understanding about everything. Especially with drugs it is a chemically induced alteration of perception the only thing i can see that that can teach you is that our perception is very limited but, does it give you new 'helpful' perceptions or merely confuse the one you already have which has taken so long to develop? (I have tried a few of those BTW). Can you say your meditative state of perception is more valid than your ordinary natural one?, you must think it is in order to base beliefs about in universe upon it. I think the feeling of peace gained from using a flotation tank may cause people to accept the world in more simplicity (as a whole) than normal, therefore the cause of change in belief would be internal.. much as it would often with Christianity. In general I think there is a physical explanation for everything.

Edited June 4, 2009 by ilikeriding

[pogo]

If it rains saturday, god does not exist, if it's dry we were lucky. How's that?

[1a2bcio8]

using techniques like that... i wonder whether it gives you a greater understanding about everything. Especially with drugs it is a chemically induced alteration of perception the only thing i can see that that can teach you is that our perception is very limited but, does it give you new 'helpful' perceptions or merely confuse the one you already have which has taken so long to develop? (I have tried a few of those BTW). Can you say your meditative state of perception is more valid than your ordinary natural one?, you must think it is in order to base beliefs about in universe upon it. I think the feeling of peace gained from using a flotation tank may cause people to accept the world in more simplicity (as a whole) than normal, therefore the cause of change in belief would be internal.. much as it would often with Christianity. In general I think there is a physical explanation for everything.

Ultimately, I'm unsure it matters what you try and reduce the event down to. It's definitely a dangerous and unfortunate game (from science) that we try to reduce everything down to a physical basis. Despite the fact that everything may arise from a 'physical' base, we do not always experience it as such. When I perceive differently, I do not percieve a different physicalism. My perception is not physically different, yet it is different, whatever that might mean. Regardless, it is unimportant if my different perception means this or that. That would be to miss the point, because if my perception means something else, I am away from my perception and the perception itself is what is important - not if we label it physical, spiritual or whatever. What is worthy in this sense is the perception within itself. Does it feel right? Does it make you feel content? Etc. Unless we are talking about causing to harm to others it doesn't much matter.

In terms of the validity of a perception, well, what makes the one you have now valid? Usually we have a feeling next to it which says it is 'right'. This might be because we are used to it or because it is what everyone else appears to have. However, there is some guiding feeling indicating to us (which I admit could always be wrong). If we start seeing miniature teddy bears doing the waltz in a treehouse several inches from our face (as I did), we would probably get a feeling that this is not very real. When people practice meditation they begin (or seem) to disolve their mind of thoughts and ideas (which seems to reduce the impact of social influences on our perception) and as a consequence they begin to experience their existence absent of social influence. Meditators usually become less reflexive to social norms. Or to put it differently, less susceptable to the relative fears, anxieties and hates that are relative to a given society/culture. They are stripping away the social filters and coming to percieve what the world is like before social influences impinge on our sense and distort the world. There is a whole host of psychological study supporting the idea that perceptions are altered through social influence. Ultimately, this difference carries with it a much grander sense of realness or validity over the others. Apparantly it is like wiping the (social) dust away from our glasses. It could of course be another delussion but the best thing to do is actually experience for it yourself and come to our own conclusion on that basis.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Ben Rowlands

[middleageman]

I've been thinking about the basics in the last couple of days. What I mean by this is, I posted earlier mentioning peoples beliefs in Evolutionary Theories and how therefore, all that matters is that, in essence;

- we are born, we learn survival instincts, until we are old enough to 'sow our seeds', raise our young and then job done. We are Animals.

But, if we are Human, are we then, not more than animal? Look what we've achieved, speech, tools, fire, language, the wheel, religion, art, philosophy, engineering, science, technology and Trials! (i've maybe missed a few). We have soared above our planets neighbours onto a whole new intellectual level of backslapping and smugness. But in all that we think we've learnt so far, doesn't Darwinism (or any other evolutionary theories), just make all of this nonsense?

Haven't we just wasted our time, working all of this out, to leave us back at square 1?

- we are born, we f**k, we die? Don't the 'animals' already do this quite happily?

Maybe, with all our years of progression and knowledge, you may call it an animal instinct, 'survival of the fittest'. But maybe, we could have advanced to ultimate intellectuality.

But maybe, a word, one little word, has stopped us in our tracks. This word may be the 'missing link between us and the Animals. This word has led Humans throughout the ages to imagine the impossible, to trust in the unknown, to fundamentaly question everything that is real. I believe that word is 'Why?'

MAM

preemptive edit: for spellings and nonsense.

[† CETFLY †]

I've been thinking about the basics in the last couple of days. What I mean by this is, I posted earlier mentioning peoples beliefs in Evolutionary Theories and how therefore, all that matters is that, in essence;

- we are born, we learn survival instincts, until we are old enough to 'sow our seeds', raise our young and then job done. We are Animals.

But, if we are Human, are we then, not more than animal? Look what we've achieved, speech, tools, fire, language, the wheel, religion, art, philosophy, engineering, science, technology and Trials! (i've maybe missed a few). We have soared above our planets neighbours onto a whole new intellectual level of backslapping and smugness. But in all that we think we've learnt so far, doesn't Darwinism (or any other evolutionary theories), just make all of this nonsense?

Haven't we just wasted our time, working all of this out, to leave us back at square 1?

- we are born, we f**k, we die? Don't the 'animals' already do this quite happily?

Maybe, with all our years of progression and knowledge, you may call it an animal instinct, 'survival of the fittest'. But maybe, we could have advanced to ultimate intellectuality.

But maybe, a word, one little word, has stopped us in our tracks. This word may be the 'missing link between us and the Animals. This word has led Humans throughout the ages to imagine the impossible, to trust in the unknown, to fundamentaly question everything that is real. I believe that word is 'Why?'

MAM

preemptive edit: for spellings and nonsense.

Why...and also... what happens after we die? Whats it all for? Something greater had to create everything

Think about it....how could humans possibly even know of God and His higher power, unless He told us about Himself?

Have a really good think about that. Its deeper than you think

We couldnt just conceive that thought pattern on our own, of God being the higher power and who He is. We know because we're told. That goes with most things in general also.

Just to bust it down really quickly and without reading the other copious pages of this thread....

Old testiment in the Bible is God being a judge and being unhappy with how people were living.

"For you own good, dont do this and dont do that." etc

New Testiment, fulfills the Old testiments telling of Jesus Christ coming.

God loves us so much that:

John 3:16 (New International Version- New testiment)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

He let Jesus take the worlds sin (of our past, present and future that we dont even know about yet) so that we can be in relationship with God. God is pure love, light, goodness, holiness. Its so hard for our feeble human minds to fathom that we would die in His presence. No evil can survive.

He's provided a way, through Christs death, of us being able to come back to Him.

It gets so much deeper than that, but please be careful plucking scriptures from here and there without understanding what that book and context is. Its easy for christians and non-christians alike to do this.

Theyre called "books" in the bible, but its actually someone writing a letter to a certain people through their struggles back in that day.

Eg: the book "Corinthians" in the back section (New testiment), was actually a letter from the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians who were struggling with heaps of lifes current problems we have today. Greed, fighting, adultery, money issues, the lot!

Theres so much stuff in the bible and its not all "though's" and "Thy" etc. There are a couple of bibles in todays current language.

I have both of them, called "NIV"- New International bible= easy to understand and "The Message Bible"= TOTALLY todays language. Its really good.

At the end of the day, all you need to know first and foremost, is that God is love. He loves you and wants relationship with you.

He is seeing if you trust in Him, being a higher power, to help you in your life. So many people think they have to give up all the fun stuff in life.

When you trust God, He gives that back and blesses you abundantly. I can vouch personally for this. Its amazing

Dont stick on the judgemental side of the bible though, as Christ came to save us from that (the whole "Smyting you down" stuff).

Now, if a christian is not coming across as helpful, caring, loving etc in their nature toward you, please dont judge christianity or God on this.

Its like life. We're all in our certain part of our paths of life and we often get off that path and go down bad, damaging roads.

We all have good days and bad days. Its still possible to vent and/or snap (far out, I did today which was out of character for me and not cool at all!)

Christians do too and are also on our own part of the journey of life and in different stages. Its a growing process as anything is.

In life there are many, many broken people. With so much hurt and baggage in their lives. Theyre tied down with it. Its no different to Christians. Again, its a gowth process and we work at getting past the past with Gods blessing, patience, love and understanding. What any normal relationship between a man and woman would be on the heart level really.

This is all said in a caring and respectful way. Ive tried to simplify it down to clarify peoples misconceptions or judgments as most people are scared off or dont believe in God or the bible or think all christians are brain washed.

Its not the case. I wasnt. I made this decision by choice, of my own will. God will never force anything. He made us with free will and love. Two things he cant control. Theyre up to us, or we'd be basically robots.

I wasnt living a christian life. Not by a long shot. The girls, the parties and all that goes with it. If I was still back there, ughhh i cringe to think where I'd be now....

I dont want people to rip into what ive said. Just have a think about it and PM if you have any questions and I'll try to help. Im CRAZY busy atm but felt pulled to write what I have. Maybe it was for one of you. I keep things stricly private when asked and its simple respect. I do that for all people regardless.

Hope this has helped some of you anyway. Even if just one

Wes

[JT!]

Why...and also... what happens after we die? Whats it all for? Something greater had to create everything

Think about it....how could humans possibly even know of God and His higher power, unless He told us about Himself?

Have a really good think about that. Its deeper than you think

We couldnt just conceive that thought pattern on our own, of God being the higher power and who He is. We know because we're told. That goes with most things in general also.

Just to bust it down really quickly and without reading the other copious pages of this thread....

Old testiment in the Bible is God being a judge and being unhappy with how people were living.

"For you own good, dont do this and dont do that." etc

New Testiment, fulfills the Old testiments telling of Jesus Christ coming.

God loves us so much that:

John 3:16 (New International Version- New testiment)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

He let Jesus take the worlds sin (of our past, present and future that we dont even know about yet) so that we can be in relationship with God. God is pure love, light, goodness, holiness. Its so hard for our feeble human minds to fathom that we would die in His presence. No evil can survive.

He's provided a way, through Christs death, of us being able to come back to Him.

It gets so much deeper than that, but please be careful plucking scriptures from here and there without understanding what that book and context is. Its easy for christians and non-christians alike to do this.

Theyre called "books" in the bible, but its actually someone writing a letter to a certain people through their struggles back in that day.

Eg: the book "Corinthians" in the back section (New testiment), was actually a letter from the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians who were struggling with heaps of lifes current problems we have today. Greed, fighting, adultery, money issues, the lot!

Theres so much stuff in the bible and its not all "though's" and "Thy" etc. There are a couple of bibles in todays current language.

I have both of them, called "NIV"- New International bible= easy to understand and "The Message Bible"= TOTALLY todays language. Its really good.

At the end of the day, all you need to know first and foremost, is that God is love. He loves you and wants relationship with you.

He is seeing if you trust in Him, being a higher power, to help you in your life. So many people think they have to give up all the fun stuff in life.

When you trust God, He gives that back and blesses you abundantly. I can vouch personally for this. Its amazing

Dont stick on the judgemental side of the bible though, as Christ came to save us from that (the whole "Smyting you down" stuff).

Now, if a christian is not coming across as helpful, caring, loving etc in their nature toward you, please dont judge christianity or God on this.

Its like life. We're all in our certain part of our paths of life and we often get off that path and go down bad, damaging roads.

We all have good days and bad days. Its still possible to vent and/or snap (far out, I did today which was out of character for me and not cool at all!)

Christians do too and are also on our own part of the journey of life and in different stages. Its a growing process as anything is.

In life there are many, many broken people. With so much hurt and baggage in their lives. Theyre tied down with it. Its no different to Christians. Again, its a gowth process and we work at getting past the past with Gods blessing, patience, love and understanding. What any normal relationship between a man and woman would be on the heart level really.

This is all said in a caring and respectful way. Ive tried to simplify it down to clarify peoples misconceptions or judgments as most people are scared off or dont believe in God or the bible or think all christians are brain washed.

Its not the case. I wasnt. I made this decision by choice, of my own will. God will never force anything. He made us with free will and love. Two things he cant control. Theyre up to us, or we'd be basically robots.

I wasnt living a christian life. Not by a long shot. The girls, the parties and all that goes with it. If I was still back there, ughhh i cringe to think where I'd be now....

I dont want people to rip into what ive said. Just have a think about it and PM if you have any questions and I'll try to help. Im CRAZY busy atm but felt pulled to write what I have. Maybe it was for one of you. I keep things stricly private when asked and its simple respect. I do that for all people regardless.

Hope this has helped some of you anyway. Even if just one

Wes

Why does it have to be FOR anything?

God was manifested by humans, there's never been any proof that God exists - I don't really get how deep it is unless you're coming from a point of someone who undoubtibly believes in God.

Throughout life we are never told anything, no one told us how to make fire, no one told us how the human body works, no one told us about evolution, we worked it out all for ourselves.

<Bible stuff is all irrelevant becuase the bible says the earth is 6000 years old and we should beat our slaves>

You say a lot about free will, we can do whatever we like, however some of those things will end us up in hell. Is being homosexual free will? Yes - but you'll end up being tortured for all eternity.

[Dave Anscombe]

God never helped me when i asked.....lucifer did though

[† CETFLY †]

Why does it have to be FOR anything?

God was manifested by humans, there's never been any proof that God exists - I don't really get how deep it is unless you're coming from a point of someone who undoubtibly believes in God.

Throughout life we are never told anything, no one told us how to make fire, no one told us how the human body works, no one told us about evolution, we worked it out all for ourselves.

<Bible stuff is all irrelevant becuase the bible says the earth is 6000 years old and we should beat our slaves>

You say a lot about free will, we can do whatever we like, however some of those things will end us up in hell. Is being homosexual free will? Yes - but you'll end up being tortured for all eternity.

"Why does it have to be FOR anything?"

True. If not we'd all be killing someone who annoyed us, steal for whatever we wanted to make us happy etc.

Some people cant see past the ends of their noses. Not saying you, im meaning that we cant see anything bigger, stronger, more powerful than us ourselves as humans.

If it was all for nothing, we wouldnt even have the question "whats it all for?"

Ok. You seem to know some parts of the bible. There must be a reason for your interest in it as you must have questioned life at some point? All humans do, whether they say/admit it or not. Its normal. We have the mental capacity for doing this, animals dont. As long as theyre fed and have company, theyre generally happy. This is what sets us apart from the animals.

Im sure most people will cry out to God when theyre about to die or when theyve exhaust all their own avenues and done everything they can out of their own strength. Like when a loved one is dieing in hospital and the doctors can do nothing for them. Im sure we dont just think "oh well, ce' la ve', we tried". No, if we dont believe, Im sure most appreciate other people praying for them. Many have had miraculous recoveries to which doctors simply cant explain.

How can God be manifested by humans if He never existed? Its not something we can just conceive. We can only understand and know what our eyes would/could see. We would simply have no concept of God or Him being the Creator unless He came and told us. If He didnt, we'd just accept what we are, what was around us and that would be it.

"You say a lot about free will, we can do whatever we like, however some of those things will end us up in hell. Is being homosexual free will? Yes - but you'll end up being tortured for all eternity."

(From New testiment, its from Pauls 1st letter to the Corinthians, so its labelled 1 Corinthians and the 2nd letter is 2Corinthians etc)

1Co 10:23 “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive.

1Co 10:24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

This world would be such a peaceful place if we just all loved one another as brother and sisters and cared for what others needed first because it would obviously come back to us. Theres nothing more fulfilling for the soul than genuinely helping and caring for someone in need and really seeing it in their eyes when they say "thank you, thank you so much"

(from New testiment again the 2nd letter to Peter, so 2Peter)

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

Thats God allowing our free will. We have the choice to do what we choose, but that doesnt mean its healthy for us and wont affect others in a bad way or have consequences. He's allowing this but wants us of our own free will, to choose to come to Him.

"Bible stuff is all irrelevant becuase the bible says the earth is 6000 years old and we should beat our slaves"

Wheres that coming from? Find it for me in the bible and I'll give some insight. Its obviously not what we should be doing of course! It sounds old Testiment and specific to a certain people of its time. Back then, beating a slave may have been as common and customary to those certain people as smacking your child. Who knows? I dont focus on this stuff personally.

We're currently not under Gods "Law" (old testiment, which is impossible to live by and God knows it) but Gods "Grace" (new testiment, freedom to live peacefully, in Gods love for us).

I have to go to bed, its 3:30am and im shattered!

Keep asking questions. Keep seeking answers mate. I recommend it!

Take care

God never helped me when i asked.....lucifer did though

What did you ask God for or for help with?

I know youre probably havin a laugh, but i'll say this...satan always will get in and "help" you whenever he can. Everything is in Gods timing though. Its up to us to be patient and wait.

If we dont, and go with a bad choice the devil is there ready to lead us astray.

Devil means "Great deceiver" as long as he has empty promises, tempting us and we believe it and take it, he leads us away from God and His love

Edited June 5, 2009 by † CETFLY †

[JT!]

"Why does it have to be FOR anything?"

True. If not we'd all be killing someone who annoyed us, steal for whatever we wanted to make us happy etc.

Some people cant see past the ends of their noses. Not saying you, im meaning that we cant see anything bigger, stronger, more powerful than us ourselves as humans.

If it was all for nothing, we wouldnt even have the question "whats it all for?"

Ok. You seem to know some parts of the bible. There must be a reason for your interest in it as you must have questioned life at some point? All humans do, whether they say/admit it or not. Its normal. We have the mental capacity for doing this, animals dont. As long as theyre fed and have company, theyre generally happy. This is what sets us apart from the animals.

Im sure most people will cry out to God when theyre about to die or when theyve exhaust all their own avenues and done everything they can out of their own strength. Like when a loved one is dieing in hospital and the doctors can do nothing for them. Im sure we dont just think "oh well, ce' la ve', we tried". No, if we dont believe, Im sure most appreciate other people praying for them. Many have had miraculous recoveries to which doctors simply cant explain.

How can God be manifested by humans if He never existed? Its not something we can just conceive. We can only understand and know what our eyes would/could see. We would simply have no concept of God or Him being the Creator unless He came and told us. If He didnt, we'd just accept what we are, what was around us and that would be it.

"You say a lot about free will, we can do whatever we like, however some of those things will end us up in hell. Is being homosexual free will? Yes - but you'll end up being tortured for all eternity."

(From New testiment, its from Pauls 1st letter to the Corinthians, so its labelled 1 Corinthians and the 2nd letter is 2Corinthians etc)

1Co 10:23 “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive.

1Co 10:24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

(from New testiment again the 2nd letter to Peter, so 2Peter)

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

Thats God allowing our free will. We have the choice to do what we choose, but that doesnt mean its healthy for us and wont affect others in a bad way or have consequences. He's allowing this but wants us of our own free will, to choose to come to Him.

"Bible stuff is all irrelevant becuase the bible says the earth is 6000 years old and we should beat our slaves"

Wheres that coming from? Find it for me in the bible and I'll give some insight. Its obviously not what we should be doing of course! It sounds old Testiment and specific to a certain people of its time. Back then, beating a slave may have been as common and customary to those certain people as smacking your child. Who knows? I dont focus on this stuff personally.

We're currently not under Gods "Law" (old testiment, which is impossible to live by and God knows it) but Gods "Grace" (new testiment, freedom to live peacefully, in Gods love for us).

I have to go to bed, its 3:30am and im shattered!

Keep asking questions. Keep seeking answers mate. I recommend it!

Take care

The reasons we don't kill each other and steal is because we have morals, these aren't put into our heads by god, it's an inbuilt thing in almost every animal, it's the instinct to survive as a species. Killing everyone would greatly harm, if not stop any chance of survival for the whole race. We have developed guilt which is probably one of the many reasons why we are the dominant species.

I've had someone close to me die in a hospital, i wasn't praying to god, i wasn't closing my eyes tight and wishing to god because i knew that wouldn't help, ce la ve was exactly what i was thinking, becuase that's what happens in life. If god has the ability to effect our lives then why doesn't he stop people from getting ill in the first place.

My wife was also hit down by a car when she was 12, she should have died, 5% survival rate when her head became infected. The doctors expected her to be severely disabled, mentally and physically. However all she has now is a limp and general mental disabilities such as bad memory and small things like that no one every really notices. She believed god brought her back, i believe it was just the way it was, good work from the doctors and just luck. Again, wouldn't it just have been easier for god to not let her get hit by a car?

There are many many Gods. People have made up God as it is an easy simple answer to the more complicated questions that we can't answer today. The fact that the bibles says we all descended from Adam and Eve shows this, it has been proved false (and that's a fact) which means it must be something someone made up as an easy answer when evolution was never thought of and couldn't be explained. Santa was made up by humans, but he doesn't exist.

So what god said then, he doesn't mean now?! I'm not going to trawl looking for the verse that says that, maybe that should be a job for yourself as to me the bible is but a book of metaphoric stories at best. However the slave verse shows that it isn't the word of god, but written by people at that time period written for their own gains.

Thanks for the offer to keep asking questions, i'm really interested in how this day of age that people can still believe in things that are just down right out of date. If you'd rather email me a reply my email address is down in my sig, or post it here.

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

Think about it....how could humans possibly even know of God and His higher power, unless He told us about Himself?

I'm afraid I didn't bother reading anything you posted after that, I may do later but when rubbish like that comes out I switch off.

Edit: Having scanned your posts I think we have a winner for hardcore christian of T-F. Unlucky.

[ilikeriding]

I've been thinking about the basics in the last couple of days. What I mean by this is, I posted earlier mentioning peoples beliefs in Evolutionary Theories and how therefore, all that matters is that, in essence;

- we are born, we learn survival instincts, until we are old enough to 'sow our seeds', raise our young and then job done. We are Animals.

But, if we are Human, are we then, not more than animal? Look what we've achieved, speech, tools, fire, language, the wheel, religion, art, philosophy, engineering, science, technology and Trials! (i've maybe missed a few). We have soared above our planets neighbours onto a whole new intellectual level of backslapping and smugness. But in all that we think we've learnt so far, doesn't Darwinism (or any other evolutionary theories), just make all of this nonsense?

Haven't we just wasted our time, working all of this out, to leave us back at square 1?

- we are born, we f**k, we die? Don't the 'animals' already do this quite happily?

Maybe, with all our years of progression and knowledge, you may call it an animal instinct, 'survival of the fittest'. But maybe, we could have advanced to ultimate intellectuality.

But maybe, a word, one little word, has stopped us in our tracks. This word may be the 'missing link between us and the Animals. This word has led Humans throughout the ages to imagine the impossible, to trust in the unknown, to fundamentaly question everything that is real. I believe that word is 'Why?'

MAM

preemptive edit: for spellings and nonsense.

So your saying because of all we have learnt through science the most probable scientific theory of how we became like this is cock and balls?? ahem

There is no missing link between us and animals the fossil records throught history are quite clear, you may want to research this before you say things like that

We still dont know alot of things for example how anything actually exists but just because we do not know doesnt mean it has no cause or is caused by 'god', if a doctor cannot determine a particular virus from a patients symptoms he doesnt assume it is god's doing or the symptoms have no cause.

You sound very preachy...

[Dave Anscombe]

"Why does it have to be FOR anything?"

True. If not we'd all be killing someone who annoyed us, steal for whatever we wanted to make us happy etc.

Some people cant see past the ends of their noses. Not saying you, im meaning that we cant see anything bigger, stronger, more powerful than us ourselves as humans.

If it was all for nothing, we wouldnt even have the question "whats it all for?"

Ok. You seem to know some parts of the bible. There must be a reason for your interest in it as you must have questioned life at some point? All humans do, whether they say/admit it or not. Its normal. We have the mental capacity for doing this, animals dont. As long as theyre fed and have company, theyre generally happy. This is what sets us apart from the animals.

Im sure most people will cry out to God when theyre about to die or when theyve exhaust all their own avenues and done everything they can out of their own strength. Like when a loved one is dieing in hospital and the doctors can do nothing for them. Im sure we dont just think "oh well, ce' la ve', we tried". No, if we dont believe, Im sure most appreciate other people praying for them. Many have had miraculous recoveries to which doctors simply cant explain.

How can God be manifested by humans if He never existed? Its not something we can just conceive. We can only understand and know what our eyes would/could see. We would simply have no concept of God or Him being the Creator unless He came and told us. If He didnt, we'd just accept what we are, what was around us and that would be it.

"You say a lot about free will, we can do whatever we like, however some of those things will end us up in hell. Is being homosexual free will? Yes - but you'll end up being tortured for all eternity."

(From New testiment, its from Pauls 1st letter to the Corinthians, so its labelled 1 Corinthians and the 2nd letter is 2Corinthians etc)

1Co 10:23 “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive.

1Co 10:24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

This world would be such a peaceful place if we just all loved one another as brother and sisters and cared for what others needed first because it would obviously come back to us. Theres nothing more fulfilling for the soul than genuinely helping and caring for someone in need and really seeing it in their eyes when they say "thank you, thank you so much"

(from New testiment again the 2nd letter to Peter, so 2Peter)

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

Thats God allowing our free will. We have the choice to do what we choose, but that doesnt mean its healthy for us and wont affect others in a bad way or have consequences. He's allowing this but wants us of our own free will, to choose to come to Him.

"Bible stuff is all irrelevant becuase the bible says the earth is 6000 years old and we should beat our slaves"

Wheres that coming from? Find it for me in the bible and I'll give some insight. Its obviously not what we should be doing of course! It sounds old Testiment and specific to a certain people of its time. Back then, beating a slave may have been as common and customary to those certain people as smacking your child. Who knows? I dont focus on this stuff personally.

We're currently not under Gods "Law" (old testiment, which is impossible to live by and God knows it) but Gods "Grace" (new testiment, freedom to live peacefully, in Gods love for us).

I have to go to bed, its 3:30am and im shattered!

Keep asking questions. Keep seeking answers mate. I recommend it!

Take care

What did you ask God for or for help with?

I know youre probably havin a laugh, but i'll say this...satan always will get in and "help" you whenever he can. Everything is in Gods timing though. Its up to us to be patient and wait.

If we dont, and go with a bad choice the devil is there ready to lead us astray.

Devil means "Great deceiver" as long as he has empty promises, tempting us and we believe it and take it, he leads us away from God and His love

God is the one full of lies

Edited June 5, 2009 by Dave Anscombe