Is Anybody On Here A Hardcore Christian?

[Mark W]

There can't be "nothing" after life.

Why not?

[beigemaster]

But do you contest that 'the church' of medieval times was Christianity in an organisational sense? Or do you think that 'the church' of old was a corrupt organisation (almost mafia like in its structure) who simply saw the weakness in those who followed the Christian belief system and used that to impart power over the masses and 'work them over' for massive personal gain?

Also, respect for the last section of your post which although I don't know the ins and outs of your beliefs I can see that it must be kind of difficult to find acceptance in any of the 'camps'.

That's a really good question because it is relevant to what I believe. In short I would say, yes. BUT, would I say the "Church of old" (or lets be honest, the Catholic church) was REALLY a Church...no. I'll try and make it as clear as possible. By definition, Christianity in its most pure sense would be the teachings of Christ (kind of in the title really). Christ's definition of a church is a collection of people who understand his message. Would the church who oppresses people/free will/philosophical and scientific development fall under this definition, no.

The problem lies with people, humans have an amazing ability to take pretty much anything and use it for a selfish end and obviously one of these things can easily be religion. Little example, the welfare state, brilliant principle in theory and it helps a lot of people out. However, it's easy to think of countless ways that people abuse it and thus create evil out of a good concept.

[Pashley26]

Why not?

Well, it doesn't matter a f**k to me because I'll be dead haha.

But a human life is a powerful thing, IE one man can kill or bring life to millions of people if he so wishes.

Humans are the most powerful force on the planet, even the elements required to live can be reproduced by man. Anything the world we know throws at us can be overcome with time, And if a leaf from a plant can be replanted and grown into a new life a human must be able to re grow into a new life.

I'm a philosophical person, I follow science and my own beliefs. But I understand that science can be overcome with research and technology, IE humans can zap cancerous cells out of there eyes for our own benefit etc etc...

Edited June 6, 2009 by Pashley26

[1a2bcio8]

Why not?

To go off topic, on the reincarnation front I've never quite got the route back up... If you're bad you come back as a newt or a dung beatle or whatever. How, precisely do you lead a prosperous and positive life as a dung beatle in order to work your way up to being a dog and eventually back to a human again? Am I missing something?!

Again, claimed by many Buddhists as myth, by others as real. A Zen master would probably punch you in the face for even asking One chap said that it was written into the pali canon as a means of encouraging people to behave better and that the Buddha never really said anything of reincarnation. He actually prefered to avoid speculation, regardless of how interesting it might be. The Pali Canon was written hundreds of years after the death of the Buddha, his teachings having been passed via verbal passage. I suspect this is why the bible was a collection of stories in the sense that they would better passed and absorbed by an illiterate populace. But the point is this leaves plenty of room for people to add their own bits into the Buddhas teachings. Anyway, reincarnation as a myth may symbolise the differing levels of suffering we can move between, in this life, as a consequence of our behaviour. Basically a version of the wheel of karma where we move up and down between heaven and hell. Until hopefully we step off the wheel of karma (or into the midle) where we are no longer affected by the temporary pleasures and sufferings that everyone else typically experiences

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

IE one man can kill or bring life to millions of people if he so wishes.

Not sure about the bringing life to millions... are we talking

?

Humans are the most powerful force on the planet, even the elements required to live can be reproduced by man.

Would you like to tell that to the 300,000 people who lost their lives in the 2004 Tsunami or shall I? Oh, wait...

[1a2bcio8]

Why not?

Confusingly, because there's no such thing as nothing

Edited June 6, 2009 by Ben Rowlands

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

A Zen master would probably punch you in the face for even asking

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

This thread just got interesting again.

[Mark W]

But a human life is a powerful thing, IE one man can kill or bring life to millions of people if he so wishes.

Bold claim #1: Human life isn't particularly powerful, but the tools we can use are, which is - I assume - how you mean we can 'kill' or 'bring life' to people, especially in that number.

Humans are the most powerful force on the planet, even the elements required to live can be reproduced by man. Anything the world we know throws at us can be overcome with time,

Bold claim #2: Humans aren't particularly powerful, as I said earlier. If we go outside and it's cold, we need to wrap up warm to conserve heat. If we don't eat or drink, we die. We are massively dependent on external items to help us live, and we've only got to this stage because of our ability to manipulate tools. Again, humans are pretty weak on their own. If, for example, you were left in a rainforest, in the desert or on a polar ice cap with nothing at all (no clothes, etc.), I doubt your 'powerful human life' would last all that long?

And if a leaf from a plant can be replanted and grown into a new life a human must be able to re grow into a new life.

Bold claim #3: If you take a cutting from a live plant, yes. If you take a cutting from a dead plant, no. Similarly, that's because the plant is being placed into an environment where it can live, whereas with humans we don't survive particularly well if we're buried in a box or burnt to ash.

[Pashley26]

Not sure about the bringing life to millions... are we talking

?

Would you like to tell that to the 300,000 people who lost their lives in the 2004 Tsunami or shall I? Oh, wait...

Well, if one man (IE that nut from Virgin) decided he was going to spend his billions on making sure africa had fresh water and spent the rest of his life devoted to it he could save millions of lives....

Those 300,000 will be reborn and the area where the Tsunami hit is being rebuilt stronger, and better prepared. Unfortunately it's natural selection and evolution, the weak or vulnerable will die and be replaced with something stronger, more prepared and "better" than before.

Sorry if I'm being a bit blunt with the whole Tsunami thing, but I'm right ?

-

Damn your good Mark !

Everything that humans use to protect from the elements, or to aid themselves day to day was created by a human. If I was going out in the cold I'd be wearing a man made jacket trousers gloves and hat. Or if I was going out in burning sun I'd wear man made clothes which shade from the sun and man made sun cream to protect my skin...

Humans have a lot of control over resources they have made, and by using the resources made my mankind we've evolved into one of the most powerful forces on this planet (as far as i know?)

Edited June 6, 2009 by Pashley26

[Mark W]

Well, if one man (IE that nut from Virgin) decided he was going to spend his billions on making sure africa had fresh water and spent the rest of his life devoted to it he could save millions of lives....

Using money, which isn't anything to do with the power of human life. Money isn't going to affect you after you die.

Those 300,000 will be reborn and the area where the Tsunami hit is being rebuilt stronger, and better prepared.

It's not, but that's not really what we're talking about here...

Unfortunately it's natural selection and evolution, the weak or vulnerable will die and be replaced with something stronger, more prepared and "better" than before.

Sorry if I'm being a bit blunt with the whole Tsunami thing, but I'm right ?

Being killed by a natural disaster doesn't really have anything to do with natural selection or evolution. As Tomm's pointed out, evolution happens over millions of years, not someone who can miraculously survive a 100ft high wall of water destroying everything in it's path, or suddenly be able to breathe underwater.

Everything that humans use to protect from the elements, or to aid themselves day to day was created by a human, name one life line or aid other than water and sun that cannot be "remade" by humans ?

Nothing we've made can bring people back to life though (I don't count someone being revived from, say, a heart attack or something as being 'brought back to life'), which is the whole point I'm making. The individual human being isn't a powerful life force. The tools we use are powerful, but humans themselves aren't. I can't will things to happen, I can only endeavour to make them happen through using other things. Equally, as I said, nothing you can make or use, or money you have or don't have, will have any effect on you after you die. Your body shuts down and decomposes, and that's pretty much it. Being able to, say, paint a pretty picture when you're alive or anything like that has no relevance in that situation.

Humans have a lot of control over resources they have made, and by using the resources made my mankind we've evolved into one of the most powerful forces on this planet (as far as i know?)

As a species, we can manipulate things - yes. However, as an individual human being, we aren't. Which is what you are when you die - you're you, on your own.

[Pashley26]

Using money, which isn't anything to do with the power of human life. Money isn't going to affect you after you die.

I think money is closely linked to the power of human life, money is one of the only things that can top faith ! Money is surely the number one desire of the majority of people in the world ? What wouldn't you do for money ?

It's not, but that's not really what we're talking about here...

Being killed by a natural disaster doesn't really have anything to do with natural selection or evolution. As Tomm's pointed out, evolution happens over millions of years, not someone who can miraculously survive a 100ft high wall of water destroying everything in it's path, or suddenly be able to breathe underwater.

Am I missing the point of evolution if I think that people learning how to overcome natural disasters to preserve there own life is a small step in evolution ?

I do understand your point though Mark, a human on it's own is nothing in comparison to "other" forces. But the tools and ways we use them make us powerful, kind of like a super space suit like Dr Robotnik' used to wear...

I understand the human body dies and decomposes, and "my" body will just rot into the ground. But I think the soul, or what ever makes me and your "us" lives on into a new life. Like, I could wake up tomorrow morning as a new born baby and thats it a new life. I don't know I used to be Jarrod Mardell, I don't even know I've been reborn. I might not even believe in being reborn when I am reborn, but I believe in it now.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Pashley26

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

name one life line or aid other than water and sun that cannot be "remade" by humans ?

Technically speaking we can make water by combining hydrogen and oxygen and we also have UV lamps and the ability to recreate the temperatures on the surface of the sun so I guess that makes us all powerful, nae gods.

I think money is closely linked to the power of human life, money is one of the only things that can top faith ! Money is surely the number one desire of the majority of people in the world ? What wouldn't you do for money ?

Must. Not. Post. Facepalm.

[Mark W]

I think money is closely linked to the power of human life, money is one of the only things that can top faith ! Money is surely the number one desire of the majority of people in the world ? What wouldn't you do for money ?

You're missing the point - I'm not saying that money doesn't do anything, but I'm saying if you're in a coffin in the ground, dead, money isn't going to change that, and it's not going to make you become re-born, is it?

Am I missing the point of evolution if I think that people learning how to overcome natural disasters to preserve there own life is a small step in evolution ?

Pretty much, yeah. As has been said, evolution is small changes, as is natural selection. Natural selection in really basic terms is, say, giraffes having longer necks because it means they can reach more leaves on a tree. The giraffes that can get more food are more likely to be stronger and more able to reproduce, so their genes will be passed on. If a f**k-off great tidal wave took a group of giraffes out, or a meteor hit the planet and killed most of their species, that's not natural selection because that's essentially an anomaly. It's also not going to have anything to do with evolution.

[Pashley26]

I do understand your point though Mark, a human on it's own is nothing in comparison to "other" forces. But the tools and ways we use them make us powerful, kind of like a super space suit like Dr Robotnik' used to wear...

I understand the human body dies and decomposes, and "my" body will just rot into the ground. But I think the soul, or what ever makes me and your "us" lives on into a new life. Like, I could wake up tomorrow morning as a new born baby and thats it a new life. I don't know I used to be Jarrod Mardell, I don't even know I've been reborn. I might not even believe in being reborn when I am reborn, but I believe in it now.

My late edit I think makes up for my initial point missing ?

[Tomm]

If a f**k-off great tidal wave took a group of giraffes out, or a meteor hit the planet and killed most of their species, that's not natural selection because that's essentially an anomaly.

Although giraffes might be able to poke their head up and breathe better than a zebra

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

If a f**k-off great tidal wave took a group of giraffes out, or a meteor hit the planet and killed most of their species, that's not natural selection because that's essentially an anomaly. It's also not going to have anything to do with evolution.

And because no genes can subsequently be passed on for the genetic modification required for the said obliterated giraffes to grow gills or meteor proof exoskeletons!

Although giraffes might be able to poke their head up and breathe better than a zebra

[Pashley26]

And because no genes can subsequently be passed on for the genetic modification required for the said obliterated giraffes to grow gills or meteor proof exoskeletons!

But, when the Giraffes do evolve in 200 million years time and find some fossils they'll work out why they have flippers, wings and gills...

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

But, when the Giraffes do evolve in 200 million years time and find some fossils they'll work out why they have flippers, wings and gills...

Only if a certain family of Giraffes were subjected to (and survived) very regular tsunamis and so were able to reproduce and pass on the genetic knowledge required to evolve such things.

I can't put my finger on it but it seems like this thread is going very slightly off course... not necessarily a bad thing of course, particularly if you're a rather forward looking philosophical Giraffe...

[Mark W]

I do understand your point though Mark, a human on it's own is nothing in comparison to "other" forces. But the tools and ways we use them make us powerful, kind of like a super space suit like Dr Robotnik' used to wear...

I understand the human body dies and decomposes, and "my" body will just rot into the ground. But I think the soul, or what ever makes me and your "us" lives on into a new life. Like, I could wake up tomorrow morning as a new born baby and thats it a new life. I don't know I used to be Jarrod Mardell, I don't even know I've been reborn. I might not even believe in being reborn when I am reborn, but I believe in it now.

I think you're still not quite seeing what I'm getting at - yes, we can build a 'Dr Robotnik' type space suit, but that's something external to the human being itself. In terms of someone being alive or dead at any one time, it has no difference to anything else in the world. Unless you're talking about something like the Egyptians believed and having all your possessions buried with you so you can use them in the afterlife

The next paragraph about the 'soul' is something completely different, and again, something I don't really agree with or see as having any real basis in fact. It also requires quite a few significant leaps of faith (Firstly, that we have a soul, secondly, that that soul can be transmitted from one body to another, and so on) that I'm not really willing to make based on no actual hint of it being true, but that's down to belief...

But, when the Giraffes do evolve in 200 million years time and find some fossils they'll work out why they have flippers, wings and gills...

If something is killed by an event, it can't evolve into anything, as it's not reproducing (As Dave said). Similarly, if something kills a group indiscriminately, then there's no natural selection taking place there, and again has nothing to do with evolution.

[Pashley26]

I think you're still not quite seeing what I'm getting at - yes, we can build a 'Dr Robotnik' type space suit, but that's something external to the human being itself. In terms of someone being alive or dead at any one time, it has no difference to anything else in the world. Unless you're talking about something like the Egyptians believed and having all your possessions buried with you so you can use them in the afterlife

Yeah, I understand. I was originally getting at one persons actions helping others, for example if one man finds a cure for cancer his actions research and dedication could help to save others long after he's dead and buried.

I like the idea of being buried with my possessions, my grandpa' is being burried in his Volvo because it's his baby (after he's been cremated). We all joke about him moving abnormal loads in his volvo for the little baby jesus when he dies....

f**king weird.

The next paragraph about the 'soul' is something completely different, and again, something I don't really agree with or see as having any real basis in fact. It also requires quite a few significant leaps of faith (Firstly, that we have a soul, secondly, that that soul can be transmitted from one body to another, and so on) that I'm not really willing to make based on no actual hint of it being true, but that's down to belief...

Yeah, it's what I believe in.

Probably seems a bit weird to you, but for me it's something quizzical to ponder until such a time as I do die, and then it'll be to late to tell anybody else anyway.

I understand it contradicts anything factual (apart from the fact that your body just decomposes and rots into the ground, which is quite nice in it's own right) but it's something to look forwards to.

-

Dave, you'll probably find one family of Giraffes were on holiday in Mumbai at the time and heard of the news and returned with snorkels and flippers to clean up the mess. Seeing what happened to the unprepared Giraffes they then spent 200 million years passing down instructions on how to mutate giraffes using wire to make wings, flippers and gills. This information was passed down from generation to generation until one day you ended up with this...

A Girrafamafly -

I hope the Giraffes don't all die out.....

Edited June 6, 2009 by Pashley26

[Mark W]

Yeah, I understand. I was originally getting at one persons actions helping others, for example if one man finds a cure for cancer his actions research and dedication could help to save others long after he's dead and buried.

No doubt, and it's the same for all the people who've made our life what it is, but their influence isn't the same - for me - as them being reincarnated or anything like that.

Probably seems a bit weird to you, but for me it's something quizzical to ponder until such a time as I do die, and then it'll be to late to tell anybody else anyway.

I understand it contradicts anything factual (apart from the fact that your body just decomposes and rots into the ground, which is quite nice in it's own right) but it's something to look forwards to.

I'd rather spend my time here doing things I actually enjoy, and make the most of the time I have here. I'd rather look forward to what I can do today or tomorrow rather than after I'm dead, pretty much.

EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to say is that often, believing in the afterlife is portrayed as being the more hopeful and optimistic outlook, and that believing that after you die that's it and it's all over is portrayed as being negative and pessimistic. However, I'd rather have belief in life as life rather than hoping the after-life is better than what we have here, if that makes sense. If you have to tell yourself (Not 'you' as in anyone specifically) that it'll be better after it's all over then it seems like a pretty sad way of looking at things, rather than being a positive way.

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

I'd rather spend my time here doing things I actually enjoy, and make the most of the time I have here. I'd rather look forward to what I can do today or tomorrow rather than after I'm dead, pretty much.

To quote the rather little known philosopher Landroverus "One life. Live it."

[Pashley26]

Don't get me wrong Mark, I live every day to the max and have no desire to die. But I'd rather accept death with my philosophy when it comes than be scared of "nothing-ness"

To quote the rather little known philosopher Landroverus "One life. Live it."

I have made an edit for you Dave.

-

Ciders finished, and I'm off to bed.

[Skoze]

One life - get one.