Is Anybody On Here A Hardcore Christian?

[JT!]

I believe by what Ive felt in my heart, what Ive read in the bible and the miracles and prayers answered which cant possible be from luck, fate, coincidence etc.

Impossible things have never happened. Anything that ever has happened has a reason that doesn't involve God. And even if we can't explain why something happened, it's becuase we don't know why. Just because we don't know why something happened doesn't mean it's God my default.

Edited June 5, 2009 by JT!

[Haz]

I'm totally down with Jesus.

Water into wine, walking on water, feeding the peeps with a fish and a bit of bread, it's all good shit.

[Mark W]

OORRRRR if you were a father, who hadnt seen his son all week, would you rather he came and saw you rather than go a for a ride that he can do on one of the other 6days in the week

If I knew of a father who demanded constant respect and adulation from his son in the form of prayer and worship; who threatened to kill him if he loved another person as a father figure; who threatened him with eternal damnation if he didn't believe every word he said unwaiveringly; who threatened that he was watching his every move and knew his every thought; who demanded that he go around telling all the other people around that his father was the best, only and true father even if they all had their own father's - I'd probably be on the phone to child protection services.

Yes, there are many translations. The word is not altered though. Theres no way were could possibly all learn the language the bible was originally written in which is written in Aramaic (old Testament) and Greek and Aramaic (New testament). Much of the New testament was written in Jerusalem, Rome, Greece and Turkey.

We as westerners, english, need this translated to understand it. Its not taking away or adding to the word of God but merely making it understandable for us.

This isn't something I'm making up. There are numerous books written on the subject (No, they're not all 2,000 words old and written by committee, but that doesn't mean they're not necessarily accurate ). The way that even within the bible there are different interpretations of words because of the way that in Hebrew words that had different meanings were easily mistaken means that even if it's unintentional there will be differences. But yeah, like I said, plenty written on the subject about the translation to English and how it altered what was actually in the bible. Again, this isn't me making it up. It's not contestable. It's simple, historical fact. I'm aware that as someone dependent on faith you might not be particularly receptive to that, but just have 'faith' in me

[† CETFLY †]

No, you're being a typical Christian and you don't have any real understanding about evolution / natural selection. Evolution IS true, it's a fact.

There is still murder, we murder cows and chickens etc. We don't murder our own kind because that goes against our natural instincts (and yes i know there are a select few who do, but that's a small %). This is how we cam to be the dominant species.

Well, most Christians always tell people to goto church and see what it's like, pray and see what you get out of it. But when you say to a Christian, try being atheist for just one week, they'll never do it.

Whats wrong with being a typical christian? Like saying "typical human"

So now youre judging me as a typical christian and saying I have no understanding about evolution? Prove to me some facts that you are trying to claim about evolution. The only reason evolutionist claim things is by "possiblilties or more-than-likely because of this and that" rather than any concrete evidence.

Evolution hasnt been proven for humans. There has not been found a "missing link" between monkeys/apes and humans. If there was evolution, there wouldnt be monkey or apes anymore would there? There would just be us.

If we'd been in existance for millions of years, then why has it taken so long for us to get where we are now after humans had evolved? We would still- if you believe in that- have the same physical build, brain.

Humans are adaptable as are plants and animals, but I dont think we're evolving.

A swimmer who's been training for many years will be able to hold his breath for far longer than a non-swimmer. Does that mean that if the world starts to flood by melting ice caps that we're going to -in time- start to have our lungs process water to survice? Theyre made for air only, not water.

If we're evolving (just as technology is booming etc) we'd not be getting affected by cancers or failing body parts . The process would be getting sped up to keep up with whats going on in the world.

We're adaptable to the enivronment we live in. We're still humans with 2 arms, 2 legs, etc. Strength isnt evolution. Thats circumstantial. A farmer on the plow would generally be stronger than his friend who doesnt do physical labour for a job (negating going to the gym). Thats adapting to your surroundings.

"There is still murder, we murder cows and chickens etc. We don't murder our own kind because that goes against our natural instincts (and yes i know there are a select few who do, but that's a small %). This is how we cam to be the dominant species."

God gave us birds of the air, animals of the ground to use for food. In the bible. That will never change whether we agree or disagree with it.

We are the top of the food chain due to God giving us the highest intelligence of any other on the face of the earth. If you think Im incorrect, name an animal smarter than us

"Well, most Christians always tell people to goto church and see what it's like, pray and see what you get out of it. But when you say to a Christian, try being atheist for just one week, they'll never do it."

Most people hate the world we live in. They disagree with how people are poorly treated, muggings, rapes, how nobody seems to care much about other people and focus their lives on themselves and what they want. Not caring if they have to walk all over someone else to do it.

I dont like the way the world has gone. The choice that Ive made to follow Christ in my life goes against the trends of selfishness and many other (unforutnately "normal and accepted today") attitudes and ways of living.

Why would I want to go back to that and be miserable? Im trying to help people, care for them and take my eyes off myself and what I want. God however blesses you when you use the talents he gave you to help others. Its a win-win situation. Why wouldnt I want that for others and then lastly, myself?

[bikeperson45]

I'm a Christian, not hardcore though. I believe in God and that something happens when you die.

But I get sick of people trying to sound like they're intellegent or know all about this when really, no one does

[Mark W]

The only reason evolutionist claim things is by "possiblilties or more-than-likely because of this and that" rather than any concrete evidence.

Irony: Fully noted.

Humans are adaptable as are plants and animals, but I dont think we're evolving.

We have no need to, as we no longer have to be the fastest, fittest or strongest to get our food, live and remain healthy. That's pretty obvious?

Most people hate the world we live in. They disagree with how people are poorly treated, muggings, rapes, how nobody seems to care much about other people and focus their lives on themselves and what they want. Not caring if they have to walk all over someone else to do it.

I dont like the way the world has gone. The choice that Ive made to follow Christ in my life goes against the trends of selfishness and many other (unforutnately "normal and accepted today") attitudes and ways of living.

Why would I want to go back to that and be miserable? Im trying to help people, care for them and take my eyes off myself and what I want. God however blesses you when you use the talents he gave you to help others. Its a win-win situation. Why wouldnt I want that for others and then lastly, myself?

This is the whole crux of the issue for me. People almost always go down this path as it leads to, theoretically, salvation and eternity by God's side or whatever. Even in that quote you still mentioned the fact that there's the personal salvation at the end of it, yet you claim that Christianity is a way of turning away from a self-centred world? Pure rubbish. Your God is one of the most self-centred concepts there is - again, constantly demanding attention in the form of prayer even though he's theoretically everywhere, demanding people follow only his word and don't dispute it, wants people to turn people to believe in his word, etc. Christianity is based on worshipping God, and it's God who created that religion. What does that tell you about him?

There are other religions out there that don't focus on personal salvation as being the reason to not be a dick to everyone, which is why in the weird circumstance that I was forced to choose a religion, it definitely wouldn't be Christianity (Especially in light of all the recent news about how the men of the cloth seem to enjoy f**king about with kids. Considering they are the custodians of your faith, I'm not sure how I could really handle knowing that the people who are telling me how to think are in fact some of the most morally corrupt people around).

[† CETFLY †]

Impossible things have never happened. Anything that ever has happened has a reason that doesn't involve God. And even if we can't explain why something happened, it's becuase we don't know why. Just because we don't know why something happened doesn't mean it's God my default.

Impossible things have never happened? Ok, maybe in your life, not mine however.

"Anything that ever has happened has a reason that doesn't involve God." Ok, such as?

"And even if we can't explain why something happened, it's becuase we don't know why...."

Of course Whats wrong with putting it down to God instead of us as humans trying to claim we did it and be proud of ourselves and our intelligence etc? We're too proud to admit God couldve done it when we dont have an answer for it. Thats a shame

..."Just because we don't know why something happened doesn't mean it's God my default"

To you, sure. But prove its not . Why cant it be God? What holds us back from saying or believing that God exists? What harm do most people think its going to bring in their lives?

Most - men- dont want to believe in God/the bible because they think theyre going to have to give up sex, personal pursuits etc.

The sex thing was one of the biggest hurdles for me and most people. Also not on the flip side. Theres two sides to every coin

[ilikeriding]

I touched on these in one of my recent posts

No, its not easy though.I cant possibly answer them all. Im not God. Someone could answer all of someones questions, but that doesnt necessarily mean they then believe. They may then want God to be standing there right before them saying "Here I Am", now do you believe? Then they go to the doctor complaining theyre seeing things and the doc gives them drugs for it as someone mentioned earlier.

We as humans feel the need to rationalise everything that happens.

To me, focussing on the bad things that I cant prevent (earth quakes etc- which on a scientific level is actually maintaining the planet, which if people dont believe in God and just evolution, should have no problem in understanding and accepting as part of like) is, to me, like someone who is focussed or worried about bad luck in terms of being supersticious.

For example. I break mirror but im not that foolish to think that glass, with a layer of shiney thin metal on the back is going to give me 7years bad luck. Faith or not.

But some people unfortunately do. They then play into that "bad luck" thought pattern when they have their heads down, trying to avoid adding to the "bad luck" by avioding cracks in the pavement (yeah, good luck doing that in london! LOL ) then walk into the path of a car and get hit.

They lay in hospital thinking "its true, i do have bad luck"

Seriously, we were blessed with a brain and we need to use it.

If they hadnt had their head down, worrying and thinking about what more "bad things" are going to happen to them, and had their eyes and head up, forgettng about a broken mirror, they stand a better chance of avoiding future problems. Like the car they can now see and avoid walking into the path of because theyre not focussed on the "bad things".

Its like people who focus on the past and cant let it go. We all have that to some extent. But we miss out on the good things in life and cause more problems for ourselves in the present and future by looking backwards at our past and past mistakes, whilst trying to walk forwards in life.

Ok that is alot of very vague statements none of which give an answer to any of my points which to be honest is what I was expecting to hear, bit of a let down really.

About your opinion of evolution... I think you might want to look into it a bit further as your saying things that are completely untrue it can be observed in humans: what generally happens when a black person and a white person have a child together? their skin tone is about half way, if that child has another with a white person they often have a lighter skin tone....that is evidence that evolution can take place just on a smaller scale.

There are fossil records of the transition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution ....have a read of that I've seen some of the skeletons myself..

You really should try looking at both sides of the argument...

an BTW most men do not believe in the bible because there is no reason to.. Its words in a book with a nice moral message apart from when god seems to favour other communities above others in the old testament, smiting anyone who opposes his favourite.

Edited June 5, 2009 by ilikeriding

[bikeperson45]

I hate your little Jesus Christ signature on this forum.

What's the point in debating it? You'll only find out when you die. I am Christian, but I'm looser with the rules.

I don't really believe in the entire communion thing, where we're aparently eating the body of Christ.

And I heavily believe in sex

[ManxTrialSpaz]

Evolution hasnt been proven for humans. There has not been found a "missing link" between monkeys/apes and humans. If there was evolution, there wouldnt be monkey or apes anymore would there? There would just be us.

If we'd been in existance for millions of years, then why has it taken so long for us to get where we are now after humans had evolved? We would still- if you believe in that- have the same physical build, brain.

Ah yes. That whole 'Missing Link' fiasco. I'm afraid that argument was rendered null and void a few weeks ago.

I have seen this argument against evolution so much by people claiming to understand it but they then fail on the basics. However, you didn't get it all wrong. Of course you're right, according to evolutionism, there wouldn't be any monkeys or apes; had we evolved from them. But, humans did not evolve from monkeys and apes. We evolved from a species from which monkeys, apes and humans all evolved from and have evolved at a parallel to each other.

And since you do know the grassroots of evolutionism, that inferior creatures die out I will point you too the Neanderthals etc. Species from which we've evolved from which have in turn died out.

If, as you've tried to argue, we were placed on this Earth as we are currently by God, then what is the explanation for the fossils of our ancestors?

And as for the recent spurt of technological advancement that is all a relative point of view. It's dinner time for me, so I'll leave you to figure out the flaws in that last claim.

[Mark W]

"And even if we can't explain why something happened, it's becuase we don't know why...."

Of course Whats wrong with putting it down to God instead of us as humans trying to claim we did it and be proud of ourselves and our intelligence etc? We're too proud to admit God couldve done it when we dont have an answer for it.

Because if we just blindly tag everything as 'being God', then we never learn anything. For example the advances in medicine we've had - if people had just said "Well, you've got ___ because it's God's will", there'd be a lot more death and illness in the world than there currently is. It's the same for virtually everything though - almost everything on the earth is a product of triumph over adversity, yet if we just gave up in the face of some form of struggle and just said that what was happening was because of God rather than working out reasons then we'd be many steps behind where we are in the world now.

Thats a shame

..."Just because we don't know why something happened doesn't mean it's God my default"

To you, sure. But prove its not . Why cant it be God?

Why isn't it Buddha (Well, it pretty much wouldn't be Buddha for fairly obvious reasons), or any of the other deities that were created before the concept of 'God' came along? Or even ones created after? And why do we just have to assume it was God instead of actually using our own powers of thoug- Oh wait, I'm suggesting we think about shit instead of just blindly accepting things. Probably not going to go over too well, I guess...

[Toby]

then what is the explanation for the fossils of our ancestors?

Satan put it there to trick us of course

[middleageman]

Evolution?

Now, if you have read my previous posts you'll have seen that I'm personaly a sitting on the fence, agnostic, bordering on athiest. With a liking for Darwinism. But I'm open to ideas.

But the views on here posted by some regarding evolution, whilst valid in many ways, don't you realise, through your conviction in the big bang theory, planetary and resultant Human evolution, you have become more devout, opinionated and bigoted than any Christian's viewpoint on this TF topic yet?

That maybe, you are forming a belief system for yourselves, a 'religion', admittedly based on scientific fact, rather than Hope.

But are you really that convinced that science has found the 'Ultimate' answer to our beginnings? That fortunately Mankind has discovered 'The Answer' whilst we are alive at this time? Do you actually believe that we have found the answer to 'Life, The Universe and Everything' and there is no possible future theory or concept that will change your mind? Do you not think that maybe in the past, people thought they knew the answer?

Probably geological excavations will develop to further support 'common' theory. But what if something else is discovered or develops? Will you be the one's that can't except 'the present truth', or will you cling on to your beliefs like a limpet to a rock?

MAM.

Edit: for extreme overuse of, commas, and daftness.

Edited June 5, 2009 by middleageman

[Spider Lad]

Of course Whats wrong with putting it down to God instead of us as humans trying to claim we did it and be proud of ourselves and our intelligence etc? We're too proud to admit God couldve done it when we dont have an answer for it. Thats a shame

What's wrong with the pursuit of knowledge and understanding? Ignorance of the evidence that is there to explain alot of the reasons you are here and just saying 'it must be god" instead of making the effort to elighten yourself of the truth, now that's a shame.

[† CETFLY †]

If I knew of a father who demanded constant respect and adulation from his son in the form of prayer and worship; who threatened to kill him if he loved another person as a father figure; who threatened him with eternal damnation if he didn't believe every word he said unwaiveringly; who threatened that he was watching his every move and knew his every thought; who demanded that he go around telling all the other people around that his father was the best, only and true father even if they all had their own father's - I'd probably be on the phone to child protection services.

Show me where God demands this of us in the new testiment. God doesnt "demand" anything. That takes away from free will and is then by force.

Children give their fathers respect, adulation, worship etc out of love for their father, not out of force.

"who threatened to kill him if he loved another person as a father figure; who threatened him with eternal damnation if he didn't believe every word he said unwaiveringly" - where are you getting this from?

"who threatened that he was watching his every move and knew his every thought"- show me how/when he "threatened"?

"who demanded that he go around telling all the other people around that his father was the best, only and true father even if they all had their own father's ". Again, God doesnt "demand" anything of us. If you had the best spiritual father in the world, wouldnt you want to go and tell everyone so they could experience His love, joy, peace happiness etc in their lives also?

This isn't something I'm making up. There are numerous books written on the subject (No, they're not all 2,000 words old and written by committee, but that doesn't mean they're not necessarily accurate ). The way that even within the bible there are different interpretations of words because of the way that in Hebrew words that had different meanings were easily mistaken means that even if it's unintentional there will be differences. But yeah, like I said, plenty written on the subject about the translation to English and how it altered what was actually in the bible. Again, this isn't me making it up. It's not contestable. It's simple, historical fact. I'm aware that as someone dependent on faith you might not be particularly receptive to that, but just have 'faith' in me

I have faith in God and trust His word (the bible) although as stated, I dont pretend to know it all and probably never will. All I focus on knowing first and foremost, is God Himself and his love and care for me in my life. I use the bible to seek the character of God in human form (Jesus) and how he lived a life of helping and blessing others, bringing them to relationship with God and eternity in Heaven, so that I can follow and do the same.

Just ask yourself two questions......

What if.....just what if..... its all true....? Then what do you do, with Jesus as the Son of God? Accept Him at his word, or reject him?

Why would anyone not want that peace in their lives? Maybe they think they can create their own peace?

Hell was never made or intended for humans. It was for satan and the fallen angels. He wants that nobody is lost and that all come to repentance....

This means accepting that Christ took Gods original punishment for our sin, on the cross, and those who accept Christ as Lord and Saviour, and believe in what He did on the cross for us, will be in right relationship with God and be saved.

Im taking the below from an audio theatre cd by John Bevere Ministries here www.rescuedaudio.org/ (its got John Rhys-Davies from Lord of the Rings as the voice of God, Marisol Nichols from 24 and Roma Downey from Touched by an Angel to name a few of the cast)

John gives a thought provoking section in the end of the cd. Here is one small part of it:

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How will you answer if asked "Do you think you'll make it to heaven?"

If you said "Im a good person, so yes, i'd make it to heaven!".....this is untrue.

You wont be saved or go to heaven by good works, good deeds or because you think "Ive been a good person".

Romans (abbreviated as RO below) talks about people who think they'll get to heaven by just being good people. This is untrue.

"Ro 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one.""

There is a good in the eyes of society and a good in the eyes of God. The two are not one in the same.

Infact scripture declares that everyone has sinned and fallen short of Gods glorious standard. (From Adam and Eve's stuff up)

Likewise if you simply hope or think you'll make it to heaven, that is also untrue. Nowhere in the bible does it state that one can think or hope their way into heaven.

If you say "well....im not sure, but do I love God"...again, you wont make it to heaven with this. If you truely loved God who created heaven and the earth, you would seek to know what it says in his word, rather than just assuming it. So in reality you've just loved an image of a god youve made up in your own mind.

This scripture shows that those who are destined for heaven, know it.

1John (New testiment)

1Jn 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

1Jn 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life

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As I said, thats just a section of it.

Its a great cd and goes on to show how to be saved and to come into right standing with God. Maybe some are reading this and taking it in, maybe some are christians and unsure of their salvation. If you are christian, and not sure where you'll go, then you need to make that certain. If people arent commenting on this thread doesnt mean what we're saying isnt being read.

If I truely didnt care about everyone reading this, and even those who havent yet, I wouldnt have spent pretty much all my afternoon and time writing replies and giving insight and answering as best as possible the questions being put to me.

Ive needed to badly clean the house (partners coming back from Aus in the morning woohoo! ) and Ive needed to pack and still sort my bike out.

The more I answer as best as I can, the more questions come. Its fine, but Ive put you guys first- just as my own word claimed in previous posts- but I also need that balance to put my partner first now and get things done that need to be done before we leave the country.

Just remember, God is FOR you, not against you

I hope Ive helped in some way. I know not all will believe, understand or care about what Ive written. I hope that some of you do and Im praying for that also.

I respect your opinions on all this as I also hope you do mine as theyve not been offensive or judgemental.

God bless guys. Not sure when I'll be back on this section of the forums as im busy the next two weeks, but PM me if you like and I'll try to reply as soon as possible.

Take care guys

Wes

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

Most - men- dont want to believe in God/the bible because they think theyre going to have to give up sex, personal pursuits etc.

I think you'll find that that has zero to do with it. I bet most of the (young) people you'll find who don't believe in God/the bible do so because they have a thought process outside of some fairy story people have been spouting for thousands of years about your god. They realised that it's pretty certainly a complete load of tosh and not worth even considering as being true or worth following. I promise you there are very few, if any who think 'man, all that god stuff sounds like it's for me, but, you know, the no sex thing? Nah, think I'll not bother'.

What if.....just what if..... its all true....? Then what do you do, with Jesus as the Son of God? Accept Him at his word, or reject him?

Thankfully that's not going to happen but y' know, at least you won't be disappointed.

God bless guys.

In all your posts I simply see you quoting bits of what may as well be the Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter because that's precisely what your beloved book is like, only not as readable as HP of course. I honestly feel sorry for you, regardless how happy the lies you believe make you, being so closed minded and ignorant, from my point of view, just seems to show a huge weakness and insecurity on your part. Meh.

[ilikeriding]

Conviction in evolution appears most valid as it explains the origins of humanity upon the basis of actual physical and observable evidence. That kind of reasoning is what we base most of our lives upon, even religious believers use logic to complete day to day tasks.. but they choose to ignore this in some aspects of their life when turning to 'god'. Hope is yet another thing that can be explained by science.

It annoys me that so many people may dedicate their lives to worshiping god in a christian sense when the whole concept is inherently flawed in so many ways, yeah many of the principles would benefit society but alot of people could make better use of their time. You only live once.

[† CETFLY †]

Ok that is alot of very vague statements none of which give an answer to any of my points which to be honest is what I was expecting to hear, bit of a let down really.

About your opinion of evolution... I think you might want to look into it a bit further as your saying things that are completely untrue it can be observed in humans: what generally happens when a black person and a white person have a child together? their skin tone is about half way, if that child has another with a white person they often have a lighter skin tone....that is evidence that evolution can take place just on a smaller scale.

There are fossil records of the transition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution ....have a read of that I've seen some of the skeletons myself..

You really should try looking at both sides of the argument...

an BTW most men do not believe in the bible because there is no reason to.. Its words in a book with a nice moral message apart from when god seems to favour other communities above others in the old testament, smiting anyone who opposes his favourite.

Again, you keep going into the old testiment. Look to the new testiment and God not smiting people. Ive read your replies fully, you need to do the same for mine. Ive not been vague, but I dont think anyone -as stated in previous replies- can answer all your questions. Even if they did you still would have issues with it. Lets just agree to disagree as theres no point dragging it out if youre just out to get christians which it seems youre doing. I dont mind, I sleep just fine at night -when Im not packing for Aus all night long!

Spider Lad: "What's wrong with the pursuit of knowledge and understanding? Ignorance of the evidence that is there to explain alot of the reasons you are here and just saying 'it must be god" instead of making the effort to elighten yourself of the truth, now that's a shame."

Nothing at all! God is all FOR us being intelligent. He doesnt want us making silly choices and not using the brain he gave us. Many things of God can be scientifically explained and actually coincide with the bible. Do a search medically on when they spear Jesus in the side after He died and water came out. It confused the heck out of the Romans, but they documented it. It fits in perfectly medically with why water would come out. Do a search on it, its interesting!

Im really interested in science and a fair few scientists believe in God from the level of depth theyve gone into with their studies. They just cant see how things could just "randomly happen" like the big bang. Everything has order- the complete opposite of random

Enlighten myself of the Truth, I have God word is called "Truth".

Onzaboymark:

"Because if we just blindly tag everything as 'being God', then we never learn anything."

No, thats not true. God wants us to learn. He wants us to know as much as possible. He delights in what we learn. Imagine have a son and seeing him discover something new for the first time. You'd be excited, whether you actually have kids or not, you would be. Like watching them learn how to walk for the first time.

"For example the advances in medicine we've had - if people had just said "Well, you've got ___ because it's God's will", there'd be a lot more death and illness in the world than there currently is. "

I disagree. If we're not challenged to try to fix it and discover ways to stop it, with God backing us up and blessing us in, say research, then we'd all be sitting around doing nothing all day with absolutely no point to our existance.

"It's the same for virtually everything though - almost everything on the earth is a product of triumph over adversity, yet if we just gave up in the face of some form of struggle and just said that what was happening was because of God rather than working out reasons then we'd be many steps behind where we are in the world now. Thats a shame"

I agree with you totally. Just because it say Gods will for me to have Diabetes doesnt mean I dont want or encourage medical scientists to try to find a cure. I pray God blesses them to stop a world-wide pandemic rather than just selfishly asking for my own healing. What does that gain in the scheme of things? Very little in my eyes. Id honestly rather the world be cured and me just living with it rather than the reverse.

"Why isn't it Buddha (Well, it pretty much wouldn't be Buddha for fairly obvious reasons), or any of the other deities that were created before the concept of 'God' came along? Or even ones created after? And why do we just have to assume it was God instead of actually using our own powers of thoug- Oh wait, I'm suggesting we think about shit instead of just blindly accepting things. Probably not going to go over too well, I guess..."

Buddha was a man. A large man, very wise. He also said "dont pray to me, Im not God." but people were so impressed with his wisdom and intelligence that they thought he was a god even though he told his followers he wasnt.

hehehe nah buddy, youre ok! Whether its something that man has made himself or something has been created and we cant explain it, I believe God had His hand involved in it, either by making it directly, or blessing the people who did make it. Make sense? Hope so

Continued from Onzaboymark:

"We have no need to, as we no longer have to be the fastest, fittest or strongest to get our food, live and remain healthy. That's pretty obvious?"

Then that goes against what most are saying about evolution doesnt it? If evolution were true, it wouldnt just stop

"This is the whole crux of the issue for me. People almost always go down this path as it leads to, theoretically, salvation and eternity by God's side or whatever. Even in that quote you still mentioned the fact that there's the personal salvation at the end of it, yet you claim that Christianity is a way of turning away from a self-centred world? Pure rubbish."

No, I didnt want it to come across as a way of turning away from. Thats not it. God gives the blessing to confront it and do something about it. Walk against the heavy flow of traffic of society. We need to get down and dirty to help those in need. It doesnt mean we turn our backs on people, on the contrary, we need to go out to our way to help mankind. There are a lot of damaged, broken people out there. Some dont want food or money, they just need someone to talk to or unload all their junk theyve built up in their lives.

"Your God is one of the most self-centred concepts there is - again, constantly demanding attention in the form of prayer even though he's theoretically everywhere, demanding people follow only his word and don't dispute it, wants people to turn people to believe in his word, etc. Christianity is based on worshipping God, and it's God who created that religion. What does that tell you about him?"

No. Christianity is having relationship with God. Thats what He wants from us. Prayer is simply talking to God. If you were in a relationship with someone, you wouldnt want them to not talk to you would you? Wouldnt be much of relationship. You can pray in your head, or where-ever. God goes against praying out allowed in the public streets etc as it looks like youre trying to prove something or show off that you have a relationship with God. Im not making too much sense with that last comment, im getting super tired so I apologise and hope its understood.

God doesnt demand prayer, its something you simply want to do.

"There are other religions out there that don't focus on personal salvation as being the reason to not be a dick to everyone, which is why in the weird circumstance that I was forced to choose a religion, it definitely wouldn't be Christianity (Especially in light of all the recent news about how the men of the cloth seem to enjoy f**king about with kids. Considering they are the custodians of your faith, I'm not sure how I could really handle knowing that the people who are telling me how to think are in fact some of the most morally corrupt people around).

"Religion" is man made, man concocted "busy-ness" to impress God. God did not, I repeat NOT make up "religion". Jesus was completely against "religioun and religious activities" because they take away from a true relationship with him. Religious peiople try to think that doing good "things" alone, will grant access into heaven and gain favour from God. This isnt true

ManxTrialSpaz:

"And since you do know the grassroots of evolutionism, that inferior creatures die out I will point you too the Neanderthals etc. Species from which we've evolved from which have in turn died out.

If, as you've tried to argue, we were placed on this Earth as we are currently by God, then what is the explanation for the fossils of our ancestors?"

Could there not have been a larger ape species?

For me, its like this. There are similarities beween us and them. There are also some humans who are staggeringly short, Downs Syndromed, super tall, totally different builds etc etc.

These fators can come into play from different dietry intakes in certain regions of the world which can stunt growth, etc etc whatever.

Regarding the apes it often come back to the whole "missing link' thing again. I didnt realise it was all 3weeks ago, sorry. Of course, theres no final answer other than wasting a lot of time for not much gain.

bikeperson45:

From earlier:

"I'm a Christian, not hardcore though. I believe in God and that something happens when you die.

But I get sick of people trying to sound like they're intellegent or know all about this when really, no one does"

Theres no "hardcore or not hardcore"

It purely comes down to the level of depth you have in your relationship with God.

Thats not true. I know what the word of God says. Its there in black and white. I dont pretend to know all of it, but whats wrong with knowing or understanding things? Thats what God wants!

Have you confessed Jesus as Lord and Saviour in your life? Satan and the fallen angels believe in God, but tremble. Just believing but not confessing it verbally doesnt gain access to heaven or a relationship with God.

If you asked someone "Do the prime minister of England?" Most would say "of course, Gordon Brown". Right. "Do you know your mother?" ...."uhhh yeah, gave birth to me, lived with her, she likes this, that, doesnt like this and that, has a big heart for people" etc etc. Then they ask you "Do you know Jesus Christ?" ...."Yeah, died on the cross about 2000years ago" etc....

"Yeah good, but do you know Jesus, like you do your mother?"....

Most people dont. The know of Him or believe of Him, but dont believe IN Him or know Him at all. The bible is how you get to know the heart of Jesus, his character, personality, love for all, grace, patience, wisdom, peace etc

"I hate your little Jesus Christ signature on this forum.

What's the point in debating it? You'll only find out when you die. I am Christian, but I'm looser with the rules.

I don't really believe in the entire communion thing, where we're aparently eating the body of Christ.

And I heavily believe in sex"

Fine. You have every right to do so. Thats your choice.

So, you disagree with my signature... If you were in Christ Jesus you wouldnt have said what youve just said. I'd personally be re-evaluating what you think being christian really is. Many call themselves christian but dont live the life or really understand it. They go to church, say a few prayers and think theyre all sweet with God. Not true. I may be wrong though, you may be just starting your christian walk...Ahhhh youre catholic then? I was raised catholic. Catholics are ritualistic. You say your prayers and hymns on sunday (or sat night) take Holy Communion and then go home and back to life as it was before church. I used to live that way. Basically asking forgiveness for the things id done throughout the week, then doing it all again next week till the following sunday. Thats not a christian walk. I heavily believe in sex too, but in the constraints of marriage where it was intended. Sure, had a lot of fun outside of that, but it all has consequences, some very damaging...

You might be familiar with this passage from Revelation where Jesus said:

Rev 3:15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!

Rev 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Basically, He doesnt want you being agnostic. Indecision is still a choice. Its a choice to not make up your mind. To me (have had struggles with my sibling with her wording of things like this) she would say "maybe" when I invited her out with us all. When the time comes and I say "arent you getting ready?" she says "I never SAID I was going, I only said "Maybe"'

If its not a yes, then to me everything else is a default. In faith or not. I do that with my business dealings too as I like to be very clear of what my choice is.

Jesus is the same. Youre either coming or checking out Christ (which Im glad people will do!) and then coming to Him, being saved but still making mistakes along the way as all christians do. The different is, Christ has covered us. We're covered by Grace. Thats not a license to sin, but He knows we're not going to be perfect, but strive to be in His sight.

If you truely love God, you're far less likely to sin. If you concentrate on temptations and sin in your life then youre more likely to fall into it and get frustrated.

This is an excerp from Matthews gospel about Jesus walking on the lake:

Mt 14:25 During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake.

Mt 14:26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.

Mt 14:27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”

Mt 14:28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”

Mt 14:29 “Come,” he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.

Mt 14:30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

Mt 14:31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

Mt 14:32 And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down.

Mt 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Its saying when you take your eyes of God and what good He has planned for you, you sink. We need, as christians, to keep our eyes on God first. He wont let us sink. Taking our eyes off him by focussing on temptation, and other problems in life etc if taking our eyes and trust away from God.

Ok guys. Please dont forget, im doing my best to answer all the questions single-handedly here and taking a lot of time to do it.

I need to bail now, but lke ive said, PM from now on if you want answers to questions and I can only do what I can to help!

Take care guys

Sorry, edited as I didnt finish my last line above ^

Edited June 5, 2009 by † CETFLY †

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

There's simply nothing else for it but:

All of your examples simply come from the various parts of the bible. You're not grasping the point that the rest of us are failing to see any possible relevance of the good book to any kind of reasonable argument or case. As said before, I may as well start quoting passages of the Lord of the Rings to you about how friendship can prosper through all, how good will always conquer evil, how temptation brings out the worst in people and how to kill a giant spider. However, I kind of doubt that anyone might start to worship Frodo or believe me if I told them that it was all based on real events that happened 2000 years ago. Your god and your Jesus are nothing more than fictional characters in a book which for some reason has been given far far far too much backing over the years and without a single piece of evidence to the contrary.

I always thought Americans were the worst for blindly following Christianity, mainly because they tend to be a little on the worldly unwise and dim side (sorry JT) but seeing as the two main hardcore christian's have been from New Zealand and Western Australia I may have to reconsider where in the world the strange people live...

[Mark W]

Show me where God demands this of us in the new testiment. God doesnt "demand" anything. That takes away from free will and is then by force.

Children give their fathers respect, adulation, worship etc out of love for their father, not out of force.

"who threatened to kill him if he loved another person as a father figure; who threatened him with eternal damnation if he didn't believe every word he said unwaiveringly" - where are you getting this from?

"who threatened that he was watching his every move and knew his every thought"- show me how/when he "threatened"?

"who demanded that he go around telling all the other people around that his father was the best, only and true father even if they all had their own father's ". Again, God doesnt "demand" anything of us. If you had the best spiritual father in the world, wouldnt you want to go and tell everyone so they could experience His love, joy, peace happiness etc in their lives also?

The general threats and harm he's caused can be pretty easily seen in the various plagues he cast upon the people of Egypt, for example leading to quotes like this: "Under this rationale, it can be seen that God is basically committing the same "evil" that Pharaoh intended to commit. By sending a plague that will kill innocent Egyptian children, God is performing that for which Pharaoh deserved punishment - a crime Pharaoh had not yet committed, but fully intended to." Sounds very fair and loving. I seem to remember as well that God killed everyone and everything on Earth except for Noah and the chosen animals as a result of their 'moral corruption' which was largely based upon them believing in other 'false Gods'. Again, not particularly fair and loving, and indeed not willing to accept other people holding a different point of view. All of the actions I've mentioned here don't sound particularly peaceful nor do they sound particularly loving. That's pretty much exactly 'where I'm getting it from' in relation to the quote above. It all adds up to suggest that if you don't do as he says, you'll be punished in a fairly unpleasant way - and not necessarily just in the after-life - and bearing in mind the Ten Commandments include not worshipping false idols, not worshipping other gods, and not 'covetting', then it suggests that if you believe in another god you're on the punishable list, and the same goes for what you think about in terms of covetting and 'false idols'. The implication is pretty clear that he knows what you're thinking (Which you'd expect as he's omnipotent and omniscient), and bearing in mind the past history he's got for f**king people up, it follows that you should follow his word - or else. Maybe I should've used "commands" instead of "demands", but as he seems pretty keen for punishing people it seems like a command and a threat is basically a demand?

Just ask yourself two questions......

What if.....just what if..... its all true....? Then what do you do, with Jesus as the Son of God? Accept Him at his word, or reject him?

Why don't you ask yourself some questions - what if... just what if... it's all true about all the other religions that people have created? What are you going to do then? When it turns out you've been worshipping a missing God your whole life, because, say, Allah is the actual God? What then? You seem to be misled into thinking that this whole issue boils down to either atheists being right and there being no God, or Christians being right and there is a God, yet what about all the other religions? They too have their own scriptures and own histories, yet you're denying them? They're method of proving themselves to be true is exactly the same as your's - and is also based on faith - so what makes your's right? All religions are documented by man, and they're all theoretically dictated to them as a result of communication with their deity, so why is Christianity the only one that's right, and on this fictional judgement day how can you be so sure that your own God is the one you're going to see?

[JT!]

Emailed you cetfly.

[Revolver]

Cetfly, did you watch

[Tomm]

I don't think you're really answering too many of the questions. If you don't mind, I'll try and pin you down on a few key points...

If we're evolving (just as technology is booming etc) we'd not be getting affected by cancers or failing body parts . The process would be getting sped up to keep up with whats going on in the world.

I don't think you understand the process of natural selection. Please tell me which are the bits you don't agree with. People have different genetic makeup (because of randomness of mating, of chromosomes splitting, and genetic mutations), therefore some individuals have traits that make them function differently to others. If this difference infers a survival advantage, these individuals will live longer and (crucially) will be able to mate and therefore pass on their genetic information. The people who don't have this particular trait will be at a survival disadvantage and won't pass it on.

However, once the individual has passed the age at which they pass on their genetic information (E.g. aged 40, ish for most humans), evolution doesn't care what happens to them*. If they have a genetic disease (or propensity to develop a disease) that will affect them after the age of 40, there is nothing in the theory of evolution that says states that this disease won't be passed on.

The fact that people are dying from these chronic diseases (cardiovascular disease, cancer) that affect them primarily after their childbearing years is actually supportive of an evolutionary basis for disease.

I cant explain why God saves some in certain times and others not. I cant begin to believe its "luck" or "natural selection"-type thinking.

So... What is your thinking? You must have an explanation as to why you think these things happen? I strongly believe it's coincidence, but you say it's not? How can you be so sure without offering any kind of alternate hypothesis?

A swimmer who's been training for many years will be able to hold his breath for far longer than a non-swimmer. Does that mean that if the world starts to flood by melting ice caps that we're going to -in time- start to have our lungs process water to survice? Theyre made for air only, not water.

Your question doesn't really make sense, but at least you're starting to question something. Although the way you're asking it kinda seems like you think it's a rhetorical question.

But let me explain. Evolution happens over millions (and billions!) of years - a timescale that may be difficult to comprehend if your belief is that the earth is 6000 years old. It doesn't happen overnight, so humans probably aren't going to survive if the world changes that drastically that quickly - there are many other (sea) creatures that would be much better suited to a life in the oceans. That would be natural selection right there, humans would die out. We (as a species) are very specialised for life on dry ground. As far as I know, there's no real evidence in any animal to show evolution going "backwards" - I.e. from a specialised air-breathing state to an amphibious state.

But that's OK, because life doesn't need evolution to go backwards. Sure, it would suck for humans as a species (We'd be dead), but life would go on. With a huge shift in the earth's environment, many current species would die out and new ones would evolve and fill the new niches that develop.

Also, what is God's stance on pornography? Real hardcore stuff I mean. I'm just curious and I thought I would give you a break from the evolution pop-quiz.

*Technically, you might argue that it's a good idea to stay alive long enough to make sure you can look after your offspring until they can cope on their own. Therefore the cut-off might not be age 40 as I said, perhaps 55 ish.

[Krisboats]

God doesn't exist. I don't have to prove he does, i just have faith in the fact that he doesn't. I might write a book about it and call it the 'elbib' that way i can just refer to it whenever anyone calls me up on my hypocritical, contradicting and unreasonable points.

[JD™]

God doesn't exist. I don't have to prove he does, i just have faith in the fact that he doesn't. I might write a book about it and call it the 'elbib' that way i can just refer to it whenever anyone calls me up on my hypocritical, contradicting and unreasonable points.

In for first copy.