beigemaster Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) Respect to your words, beigemaster. To me, at least, you make a great deal of sense. You also enthuse me to comment Cheers Ben, it's nice to know someone has taken the time to think about the kind of ideas I'm trying to put across. Although I'm sure you wouldn't want to put a label on your belief system, would you say it was similar to a variation of Pantheism? You do have some genuinely interesting ideas and it's nice to know that there are still people out there who aren't necessarily seduced by the notion of absolute physicalism having all the answers. Having ducked out of this thread for a while, it seems to be drawing to quite a nice conclusion, mainly that neither side of this debate will be one over by the other. This is mainly due to how you see/understand the world. If you have been brought up with the world view of materialism (that nothing exists outside the system of physical nature) then no evidence any Christian or theist will win you over because you will assume that there is a physical explanation (even if we don't know what it is yet). Therefore, before looking at any evidence for anything beyond the physical world, you need to look at a philosophical (rather than scientific or empirical) question of whether anything can POTENTIALY exist outside the physical world. Of course, you can/should flip the whole of this question for those who belief in God or any other supernatural (that is outside of nature) idea. Obviously a lot of people on here make the claim that organised religion will essentially brainwash this notion of super nature onto you as a child, so you will be brought up with this intrinsic idea. I have to say that I agree with this and I believe that it is always wrong to not treat a child as a potential rational agent (guess I'm a bit Kantian here). On a quick side note, it may interest you to know that according to the Bible, Jesus hated religion and religious leaders, in one passage he calls them cheats, liars and hypocrites repeatedly and so if he were to be here today, not sure what he would say. Having said all that, this philosophical brainwashing that religion gets accused of also occurs outside of religion which is why, as it stands, the general consensus at the moment is an absolute/no questions faith in science. I'm not criticising science here, only when it gets ideas above its station and it boundaries (which are set by its own standards). Another little side note, interesting to know that the majority of early and great scientists were religious (as a lot still are) and the reason they expected uniformity and the building of scientific truths, was because they believed in a God that would make such rules and laws in creation. I'm not saying that they are right, but it's a nice illustration of how religion and science can easily be united. Personally, I have come to the conclusion (as stated a while ago) that materialism is self defeating therefore it is not intrinsically impossible that something can exist outside of nature even if maybe intrinsically improbable. I reached this without religious brain washing but reading various philosophical arguments on both side. I urge people to not just take anything (even the physical exploration of science) as given, question your own beliefs as well as other people's. Edited June 2, 2009 by beigemaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuel Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Everything we've learnt so far was fact, until it was disproved.But we have already disproved the bible (or very large parts of it ?)Perhaps the church instilling some morals into the scum in the country like they used to wouldn't be a bad thing?why does the church need to instill morals ? why cant general society do this ? why do we need the fear of an almighty in the world - that to me is a bad thing... People acting under fear leads to bad timesIs it wrong that I hiss at preacher people if I see them spouting their religious rubbish in the street? Or just rude?no its not wrong - it may be rude though !!! Im pretty sure forcing religion on others was not what 'God' intended either though ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tris Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 I'm a christadelphian, which is like a christian group who believe slightly different things (officially we're a cult )We don't believe in the trinity and don't believe that 'Jesus is God'. We believe he's the son of god.I'm not exactly clued up on any other the christian things but i do know that having a religion whatever it is, makes you have a structured life cylce to follow that is just, kind, loving, happy and all the rest of it.At a lot of church camps that we go to you see and meet really genuine people who are really warming and it's like one of the nicest places you'll ever find with everyone getting along with everyone and no problems or hassle like you find in 90% of the world.Also everyone is so secure that car's are left open, money left lying around and you know that it won't get nicked, like it would anywhere else.I could quite easily travel the world/UK and spend time at different christadelphians houses and they'd happily accept you even if they personally don't know you which is pretty amazing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Rainbird Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 99% of major world conflict has been brought about by either religion or America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) 99% of major world conflict has been brought about by either religion or America.The other 1% being started by religious Americans... Edited June 2, 2009 by JD™ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tris Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 But we have already disproved the bible (or very large parts of it ?)why does the church need to instill morals ? why cant general society do this ? why do we need the fear of an almighty in the world - that to me is a bad thing... People acting under fear leads to bad timesno its not wrong - it may be rude though !!! Im pretty sure forcing religion on others was not what 'God' intended either though ...People with a religion don't generally have fear because they accept life and death as it is. Also they believe in some sort of afterlife.No the bible hasn't been disproved or proved, the same goes for the big bang theory (i think the big bang theory was the starting of creation, but it didn't just happen, some sort of god made it happen.)People should'nt be forced to believe anything, freewill lets you decide, the bible simply guides people with morals better than any government ever could.These arguements have been stated time and time again and at the end of the day neither can be 100% proved. I just think something must of started everything off....99% of major world conflict has been brought about by either religion or America.I suppose it depends how people interpret what they read in religious books. Mostly attention is only brought to the 'bad cases' of religion which is why it may have a bad name.Muslims and other Eastern religions read to into it and then just start fights, but they just f**king dicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Nick Riviera Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 99% of major world conflict has been brought about by either religion or America.the other 1% was when you forgot to settle the tab at that brothel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 We believe he's the son of god.I thought that was what the whole bible was about... him being the son of God an' all that...Also everyone is so secure that car's are left open, money left lying around and you know that it won't get nicked, like it would anywhere else.And where did you say these camps are held? Edit: Also, can I ask how you got into Christadelphianism? Are your folks followers too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Nick Riviera Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Sod the loot Dave, think of the virgins! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Sod the loot Dave, think of the virgins!WWJD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haz Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 WWJD?R_PE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 R_PEL_LZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 L_LZJust reminded me of this:EX_DUS T_S_N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Quinn Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 I could quite easily travel the world/UK and spend time at different christadelphians houses and they'd happily accept you even if they personally don't know you which is pretty amazing...Yer but i reckon i could do that with bmxers, street artists or any other tight nit, underground scenes. Doesn't mean i base my life around it and make it gospel Muslims and other Eastern religions read to into it and then just start fights, but they just f**king dicks.You know christians start wars too right? Think of catholic protestant conflict etc. What you just said there is the kind of narrow mindedness the worlds trying to fight at the minute. Every religion has extremists, and yes, i'm pretty sure that would include yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManxTrialSpaz Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Just reminded me of this:EX_DUS T_S_NOr"People who annoy you:N_GGERS" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Yoshi Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 I thought that was what the whole bible was about... him being the son of God an' all that...Some Christians believe in the holy trinity. That is God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit. Some Christians believe Jesus Christ is the incarnation of God. God in the flesh.You can very rarely say that all Christians believe in one thing as it all depends on how you interpret the bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jitters Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 99% of major world conflict has been brought about by either religion or America. You left out greed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronz Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 You left out greed.Nope, he covered that with 'American'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Rainbird Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 What did Jesus ever do for Santa on his birthday? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Yoshi Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 What did Jesus ever do for Santa on his birthday?Died for him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Rainbird Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 If heat rises, is heaven warmer than hell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Died for him?I don't really get how he died for anyone. One of his homies grassed him up to the rozzers and they had him crucified. He hardly did it of his own free will... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Yoshi Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 I don't really get how he died for anyone. One of his homies grassed him up to the rozzers and they had him crucified. He hardly did it of his own free will...He could of got free if he wanted to. He could of ran away before they came and got him. He knew he was going to die and how for a long time. He could of legged it then but he didnt. He stayed and died for us in one of the most horible ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tris Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Every religion has extremists, and yes, i'm pretty sure that would include yours.Yea that's what i was getting at, most religions example a good way of life apart from the 1% of people that percieve the religion incorrectly and thing terrorism etc is what will make the world a better place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Some Christians believe in the holy trinity. That is God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit. Some Christians believe Jesus Christ is the incarnation of God. God in the flesh.Neither of those make sense though.My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?So... he's asking himself why he's forsaken himself? Either he's got a couple of screws up in his head loose... or the people you're describing above can't read. I also find it mildly amusing, in the light of Prawn's blatant Nazism, that the death of Jesus can be placed squarely on the Jews. Man they must feel a bit shit.He could of got free if he wanted to.Says you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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