Product Design Degree Project

[cant_ride]

The funny thing with design and engineering is, it's nearly impossible to factor in human nature and behaviors.

My guess at where the idea might come up against a functionality issue is:

The learning curve directly related to operation of the brake while under stress or fear.

Only time will tell.

Good luck!

Exactly! There's a period of anxiety present in any situation which requires forgetting old ways and learning new ways of doing the same task and this is a good example of that. At least half of my theoretical market will have at some point used a regular brake setup. The biggest problem will definitely be the user, which is a bugger because its the user I'm designing for, obviously. On the other hand it is designed for bike lovers and I trust their determination to spend a few hours learning the operation

Oli

[Dang!]

Take a look at this link from OTN http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/showthread.php?t=41575

This is a guy who only has use of one hand and is using two levers- perfect subject for your product.

[mike-dyson]

I don't think it looks safe as when you make a mistake when riding trials you can sometimes end up with all your weight on the front wheel and pushing down on the bars, so is that happens and the bottom hose is the front break you might accidentally lock the front wheel up and be thrown over the bars.

[manuel]

It takes a few hoes practice eventually gets very easy to operate both individually and precisely modulate between the two. It has been designed to allow any combination of braking activities.. Front on, back on, both on, either of both feathered, one locked one feathered and so on... Read about tacit knowledge if you don't believe it is effectively operable

How much does it weigh ? Im guessing it could be made to weigh a fair bit less than a pair of equivalent XC levers ? If its true about the operation - then you really dont need to bother marketing to disabilities (tiny market ? sorry its business...) you should focus on selling it to the XC weight weenies (huuuge market)...

[jbinion]

That is an excellent idea. I would love to help with testing... except that I suck at riding... but I do have one hand with a little problem... artificial knuckle on second finger of my left makes braking difficult. How much do you think it would cost?

[Has anyone seen my shoe?]

Take a look at this link from OTN http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/showthread.php?t=41575

This is a guy who only has use of one hand and is using two levers- perfect subject for your product.

Check out the member 1handedluke on here aswell, from where Oli is from. Maybe even more perfect then that one

[Walleee]

wow 3 pages before luke was mentioned, I just assumed that this was actually veing designed for him.....

[Has anyone seen my shoe?]

So this is what youve been working on for months, looks ace . Might by luke one for his bday haha.

6th post?

[Revolver]

From the point of view of operating it whilst under the influence of fear, the most important thing would be to have the front brake as the alternative braking method, and the rear as the conventional. That would prevent people from just grabbing it and flying over the handlebars.

I think.

[cant_ride]

Take a look at this link from OTN http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/showthread.php?t=41575

This is a guy who only has use of one hand and is using two levers- perfect subject for your product.

Thanks for the link, the more existing potential users the better!

I don't think it looks safe as when you make a mistake when riding trials you can sometimes end up with all your weight on the front wheel and pushing down on the bars, so is that happens and the bottom hose is the front break you might accidentally lock the front wheel up and be thrown over the bars.

Its not for trials riding primarily, this has been mentioned quite a few times so far. I have normal brakes and I fly over the bars quite a lot of the time.. happens to the best of us.

How much does it weigh ? Im guessing it could be made to weigh a fair bit less than a pair of equivalent XC levers ? If its true about the operation - then you really dont need to bother marketing to disabilities (tiny market ? sorry its business...) you should focus on selling it to the XC weight weenies (huuuge market)...

I'm not aiming it at a disability market, it was just inspired by people with disabilities. Either way you'd be surprised how many disability applications this has (Already have interest from SSAFA) And yes, a restraint I gave myself was that it was not to weigh more than 1.5 times the weight of an HS33 lever, it weighs approx 102grams without fluid in the cylinders. 82 grams with the carbon fiber lever blade.

Also with CNC production, the product begins to make a profit at 231 sales at £65. I already have about 180 people saying they'd definitely buy one.

That is an excellent idea. I would love to help with testing... except that I suck at riding... but I do have one hand with a little problem... artificial knuckle on second finger of my left makes braking difficult. How much do you think it would cost?

Hi thanks for the interest.. would you be willing to answer a few questions and maybe send images that might explain your problem?

wow 3 pages before luke was mentioned, I just assumed that this was actually veing designed for him.....

The project was inspired by Luke as he rides incredibly well but the bigger picture in the commercial world means that it can not be directly catered to him, or trials riding, alone

From the point of view of operating it whilst under the influence of fear, the most important thing would be to have the front brake as the alternative braking method, and the rear as the conventional. That would prevent people from just grabbing it and flying over the handlebars.

I think.

The levers operate whichever brake you want them, just a case of switching the hoses round. My speculation would be that XC and other would have the front brake as the regular operation and trials riders would have the back brake as the regular operation. With any braking system its about gaining a tacit knowledge of its operation and limitations and overcoming these might be a case of making mistakes in panic situations.. its impossible to tell without full scale testing.

Thanks everyone!!

Oli

[Captain Scarlet]

I love the research that has gone into this, its immaculate like you've covered just about every aspect of comfortable braking.

I'm not sure how is it to press the lever downwards through.

You've got to think of adaptation here, if you have lost the use of one hand and are keen to ride then over time you can adapt to things that most people wouldn't even think of.

Luke managed to use two levers on one side really well, and you've gotta think thats effectively only 2 fingers and a thumb gripping the bar, which to me seems impossible.

I think this is a brilliant idea, especially how the design allows for different braking patterns, such as both on or one on etc.

£65 for a CNC lever? That price tag alone is amazing, especially when compared with the quotes Luke had for a custom lever (although I guess that would have been a one off).

Have you thought into other applications besides the cycle market? Like motorcycles? I'd imagine there is a large amount of motorcyclists who have lost the use of a hand (or even a leg) through road accidents.

A slight tweak of the design could produce Clutch/Front brake lever for those who have lost use of their right hand, or front/rear brake lever for those on the right leg.

Please keep this updated, I would love to know if it becomes a full fledged success.

Great stuff.

[2sixstreet]

Excellent work, i'm impressed with the way it's been thought out and attention to detail, not just from a manufacturing point of view. The levers look very tactile (large flat surface) and easy to use and you've backed that up with figures. Someone mentioned the XC style dual control shifters and although they appear to be a clumsy design they are easy to use, particularly by pushing down on the lever. IMO what you have desigend would give a natural feel after a short period of time. From a XC point of view I can see the advantages and disadvantages. Drinking & eating etc whilst racing for example still gives you full control. I'm not sure I would like to be using one hand for a 2hr race (or enduro) to do all the braking though.

What you need now is to produce a dual control shift system for the other side of the bars.

Hope it works out well.

OT: what program are you using and what post rendering package have you used?

[cant_ride]

Solidworks to model it and Hypershot to render.

Oli

[Matt Vandart]

Does the pushing down operate a brake.

Have you thought about this situation:

Pull back- operates both brakes

Push down- bypass port allows some of the oil to the front brake to bypass making the front brake weaker.

A bypass would not be as hard on the finger to operate than putting actual braking pressure on.

It looks to me that the way it operates is that pull back operates one brake then push down sends some of the oil to the other brake via a port that is uncovered by pushing down on the lever.

Is that the way it works?

You may well have thought of it and dismissed it I am just wondering.

Matt

[psycholist]

It's to separate independent pistons, with independent reservoirs as far as I can see. Using some sort of bypass would lead to the bit point of the lever changing while the brake is held on.

[Fishy]

Can you operate both brakes at the same time?

[cant_ride]

Does the pushing down operate a brake.

Have you thought about this situation:

Pull back- operates both brakes

Push down- bypass port allows some of the oil to the front brake to bypass making the front brake weaker.

A bypass would not be as hard on the finger to operate than putting actual braking pressure on.

It looks to me that the way it operates is that pull back operates one brake then push down sends some of the oil to the other brake via a port that is uncovered by pushing down on the lever.

Is that the way it works?

You may well have thought of it and dismissed it I am just wondering.

Matt

Two separate cylinders.. The easiest way to think of it is two completely individual brakes in one unit.. one of them perpendicular to normal. There is almost no situation where you would need both brakes on at the same time for competitive riding. Also, having one piston operating both brakes would require that the distance between the pad and rim be exactly equal otherwise one would bite at a point, then the lever would continue to travel until the other did, then they would both be capable of locking. Individual control is paramount for on cycling activity.

It's to separate independent pistons, with independent reservoirs as far as I can see. Using some sort of bypass would lead to the bit point of the lever changing while the brake is held on.

Correct and correct

Can you operate both brakes at the same time?

Yes, very easily. And easily modulate between the two during use.

Cheers

Oli

[JonMack]

Dunno if this has been asked already but how is it bled?

[cant_ride]

Same as Maguras

[JonMack]

So you can bleed it one cylinder at a time? That's cool

[1handedluke]

lol first time i noticed this thread oli, looks sick mate really does, if you need me to try one out i'd be more then willing by the way . that lever looks crazy would love to see how it would run on my trials bike if i got the dust off it. lol the only thing i noticed with it, is surely when you pull it in the bit of the lever thats extended for the push down lever would cause a obstruction?

[Matt Vandart]

Ah, I see, I didn't realise it was for competative use.

Matt

[CoppellStereo]

Luke or I would be good test subjects for this. The only bad thing is I run Cable Brakes. I made a custom splitter for my cable before which allowed dual adjustments of the cables. I just use both levers on one side which works well most of the time!

[1handedluke]

hello coppell seems we have both tried different methods of sorting out this lever business for us lol. i'd throught i'd post up my ideas and then maybe i could see yours. i've also gone back to the 2 brakes on one side which after all my attempts i've always found the most reliable for trials. anyway links to my stuff.

http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....;hl=1handedluke

1 lever 2 discs

http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....;hl=1handedluke

heres a lever i got robin off t-f to design for me muchos respectos to him must of spent hours on it. when i finally got it quoted, it was going to cost way to much.

i did also find a magura lever on ebay with a 20mm piston it was designed by magura to run dual brakes on one lever, ill get a picture of it later. the problem i found with this is that my finger just couldn't react quick enough and it felt super sloppy. even after multi bath bleeds.

hope this helps you in some way!!

luke

[CoppellStereo]

hello coppell seems we have both tried different methods of sorting out this lever business for us lol. i'd throught i'd post up my ideas and then maybe i could see yours. i've also gone back to the 2 brakes on one side which after all my attempts i've always found the most reliable for trials. anyway links to my stuff.

http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....;hl=1handedluke

1 lever 2 discs

http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....;hl=1handedluke

heres a lever i got robin off t-f to design for me muchos respectos to him must of spent hours on it. when i finally got it quoted, it was going to cost way to much.

i did also find a magura lever on ebay with a 20mm piston it was designed by magura to run dual brakes on one lever, ill get a picture of it later. the problem i found with this is that my finger just couldn't react quick enough and it felt super sloppy. even after multi bath bleeds.

hope this helps you in some way!!

luke

Good Ideas! On your lever why did you decide to extend it? more leverage? I didn't ride one lever for long, I did the 2 levers on one side, and it works really well. Wheel Switches are kinda tricky as well as a side hop where you are balanced on your rear wheel then up to the front are both tricky. Other than those 2 moves I haven't had much of a problem with both levers on one side!