A Strong Frame

[middleageman]

Howdy. I'm enquiring about buying my first Trials frame/bike. Being a Newbie, 12 stone, 5'10

and possessing absolutely no Trials skills, it therefore must be STRONG!

I want a NEW one as i'm hitting 40 next week and want to treat myself, I'd like it to last a while

and if it breaks, at least I know it's down to me.

I don't really care about weight or geo as I'm new and still considering a maybe a Dirt bike as well. I just want to have fun!

I've got a grand or so to splash on a bike.

I could get a 'proper' Stock, or a wicked 24"

or a nice, new, off the shelf Onza mod and a very tasty Dirt bike.

Strength wise, an aluminium or steel frame?

I know I should make my mind up and pick a type of bike/style of Trials or street/dirt, I know I should 'try before I buy', but I have only recently met my 1st local Trialer.

I know i've sort of posted these questions before and had some great advice, but the more the merrier, there's a lot to learn.

My main question though, is all about STRENGTH and longevity, in all three types of Trials frames.

I only ask, because I am still unsure. Therefore any replies, help, honest opinion or abuse would be most welcome!

middleageman.

Edited February 19, 2009 by middleageman

[Fish-Finger-er]

Howdy. I'm enquiring about buying my first Trials frame/bike. Being a Newbie, 12 stone, 5'10

and possessing absolutely no Trials skills, it therefore must be STRONG!

I want a NEW one as i'm hitting 40 next week and want to treat myself, I'd like it to last a while

and if it breaks, at least I know it's down to me.

I don't really care about weight or geo as I'm new and still considering a maybe a Dirt bike as well. I just want to have fun!

I've got a grand or so to splash on a bike.

I could get a 'proper' Stock, or a wicked 24"

or a nice, new, off the shelf Onza mod and a very tasty Dirt bike.

Strength wise, an aluminium or steel frame?

I know I should make my mind up and pick a type of bike/style of Trials or street/dirt, I know I should 'try before I buy', but I have only recently met my 1st local Trialer.

I know i've sort of posted these questions before and had some great advice, but the more the merrier, there's a lot to learn.

My main question though, is all about STRENGTH and longevity, in all three types of Trials frames.

I only ask, because I am still unsure. Therefore any replies, help, honest opinion or abuse would be most welcome!

middleageman.

Strength wont be too much of an issue on most bikes for you... your rather light (bigman on here is 19 stone(ish) and doesnt really break many frames, and goes rather big) you wont be going big, and are quite a lightweight.

Providing you dont go for a superlight competition orientated frame youll be fine.

As for a bike, i think i suggested to you before, for going stock, you could get a tidy new stock, and a pretty good dirt bike for that money(if you shop around). pointless compromising when you got that kind of cash to spend. (also by getting 2 bikes, when you inevitably break bits (no matter how light you are, you will break levers, hoses, mech's on trials bikes occasionally, and on dirt bikes, anything can happen really,although it doesnt tend to happen that much) youve still got a spare bike to ride.

[forteh]

You couldnt go much far wrong with a t-rex for starters

Personally I would look at a 2nd hand frame off here and spec it out with components that you want form tarty. As its your 1st trials bike you are unlikely to find a perfect frame for you, and if youve just blown 300+ on a new frame to find out that something else would suit you better in 3 months time then you have to take the massive depreciation hit associated with new frames

Dont forget that its isnt just the frame that suffers in trials, the components take a hammering and the more you can spend on upgrading/ better speccing them the better your ride will be. The t-rex frame is very strong, geometry is pretty good for a beginner and will last you a decent amount of time.

Someone will probably come shoot me down in flames and suggest a far better frame to start with, but hey

[Matthew_Gibson]

Strength wont be too much of an issue on most bikes for you... your rather light (bigman on here is 19 stone(ish) and doesnt really break many frames, and goes rather big) you wont be going big, and are quite a lightweight.

he's so smooth though, that how he gets away with it.

[middleageman]

Nice advice guys!

I'm sort of liking the 2 bike idea for where I live, any make of strongish beginners streety stocks you could recommend?

As for buying the wrong geo/frame, as I've not tried any, I will learn how to ride/master the bike I buy and then maybe move on in the future.

Cheers and keep on helping please guys!

[Simpson]

he's so smooth though, that how he gets away with it.

He's not saying it in a, Bigman's a fat c*unt and he gets away with it, he's saying in the way that 95% of trials frame's on the market now-a-days will be fine for any rider of any size, and not risk the slightest chance of snapping. So pretty much pick any frame you like the look of, except Neon's, and I don't think I would trust myself with the Onza range, but no-ones snapped one yet so hey-ho.

[middleageman]

Mmmm, I think I've got the wrong impression from reading a topic of members previous 'frames throughout the years' and reading

"this cracked" or "snapped after 2 months" etc. This is why I'm nervous of buying 2nd hand. I ain't made of money!

Cheers!

ps. being an ol'skool cyclist I only know of steel, what are the benefits/disadvantages of aluminium these days?

Also, what makes are classed as 'lightweight comp frames' and therefore unsuitable?

I feel I need something robust!

Edited February 19, 2009 by middleageman

[Simpson]

Mmmm, I think I've got the wrong impression from reading a topic of members previous 'frames throughout the years' and reading

"this cracked" or "snapped after 2 months" ect. This is why I'm nervous of buying 2nd hand. I ain't made of money!

As long as you don't buy any Koxx or Monty frames, you should be alright, Old school frames are also a risk, eg. Zebidi's etc. Although I hate to say it but if you stick to deng style frames you will be fine, and don't worry about buying second hand, I never have, even if worst comes to worst and the frame snaps, you have saved so much money on all the components it kinda makes up for it. Also bikes are selling for pennys now-a-days, I sold my A3 which would have cost 500ish a year ago for 280, which is mad cheap!

So get looking and get a bargin, I would never ever buy new, as when you add up all the little bits it soon mounts up, all the little things you forget when quickly spec'cing a bike.

EDIT: and don't forget were mostly all bashers who use and abuse our bikes

Edited February 19, 2009 by Simpson

[BenLeacock™]

Hmm, these topics you are talking about, I would of thought you were on about the koxx's. At the end of the day, its about judgement aswell as knowledge. You look at how these XTP's are being riden then look on Tarty and there is a link to a page about K-Alone material.

CAUTION:

K-ALONE must be handled with caution. It should be regarded as the ultimate “no compromise” weapon. It will not tolerate unnecessary shocks and badly timed riding. Equipment manufactured from his revolutionary material is intended for use by Elite competition and professional riders.

Is there really any surprise that these frames have cracked/snapped when you look at some of these riders video's lol. I would personally think there is 3 steriotypes accosiated with frames. Comp, Street, Both. Obviously there is nothing stopping you from riding a Comp bike on the street, but they are not manufactured to withstand the battering some riders give them, but if your smooth enough and careful you will be fine. The frames are normally manufactured to be light to give extra advantage in comps. I would personally say that the two big comp names are Koxx and Monty.

Then there is street bikes, which are generally heavier and made to withstand more of a bashing. Brands which are linked with street, are normally deng (zoo, gu, czar, adament, echo). However the latest models have been aimed at the comp scene. But I haven't personally heard of any snapping or cracking?

Then brands such as Ozonys, Rockman, Onza, MBK fall into both categories. Every frame is going to break at some point if it is battered since day one. Just depends how your going to treat it. Personally id go for the buy a second hand frame and then buy new components. Frames which are renown for being strong are the Echo Controls, you see these sell when there is thousands on dents on downtubes etc.

Just be careful when your looking for a second hand frame, like you said you don't want to get something which is battered and nearly at the end of its life. Id personally ask for pictures of the main area's which are known to receive damage, downtube, chainstays and ask if threads are all ok. You can normally get a picture of how the bikes been ridden/looked after from the scratches/dents. Just got to remember that trials isn't a sport like say XC where you keep your bike looking really pretty. You will get dents/scratches, just need to make sure components are in top shape.

24'' frames are normally aimed at fast trials/bmx moves. As you can see in video's by riders such as Danny Mackaskill, Rowan Johns, John Shrewsbury.

I'd highly recommend looking for a Echo Control, 06-07 model. Or if you were going to get a 24'' go with a Inspired, Never hear anything but good reviews about them.

[middleageman]

Good, good, good advice!!! Thank you both!!!

Indulge me if you please, in my head, if I had £1400 to spend on something new.

I could get either a top spec stock or Inspired from Tarty,

or something like a Meta VTT for £880, which I may have learned is pretty stong and 'mod like' for a Trials orientated stock with the high BB rise and such,

and also a decent dirt/jump bike for £600 ish for 'avin a laff street style and tings.

I may be widely off the mark - this is why I ask!

All advice welcome! (except 'a fool and his money.....' quips! )

[Fish-Finger-er]

Good, good, good advice!!! Thank you both!!!

Indulge me if you please, in my head, if I had £1400 to spend on something new.

I could get either a top spec stock or Inspired from Tarty,

or something like a Meta VTT for £880, which I may have learned is pretty stong and 'mod like' for a Trials orientated stock with the high BB rise and such,

and also a decent dirt/jump bike for £600 ish for 'avin a laff street style and tings.

I may be widely off the mark - this is why I ask!

All advice welcome! (except 'a fool and his money.....' quips! )

You could do either, but there really is no need.

You can get a brand new decent spec stock for less than £1400 brand new.

But bearing in mind your just getting into the sport, i really wouldnt go brand new, for £250-300 you can buy something tidy second hand, or for £400ish you can buy something mint. As to be brutally honest, theres no need for anyone to have a brand new bike really, let alone someone who is just a noob.

If you ride for 3 months and get bored of it, that £1400 bike will be worth £400-500 tops. thats a massive loss(i know you can probably afford it, but i can afford to lose £1000 over 3 months without it ruining my life, but i wouldnt be happy about it)

if you fall off(your learning) and injure yourself(no offence, but not being a spring chicken, bones take longer to heal,your probably slightly more fragile than a 16/17 year old) it may put an end to your riding (or you may hurt yourself and your wife may put an end to your riding) and its worth £400-500 tops again. (this is of course assuming you dont wreck it)

If you ride it, find it and trials ok, then you ride someone elses bike on a ride in 3-4 months time, and you realise youve made totally the wrong choice of frame, and enjoy a shorter/longer frame with a lower/higher bb. and you sell the frame your gunna lose a couple of hundred quid.

The only time in which you might of wanted a brand new frame,is if you fall in love with trials... but in that case, by the time the second hand frame reaches the end of its life, youd probably of being wanting to change it/update it anyway.

and saving yourself £1000 for bits/beer/a romantic gesture to the other half, so shell let you out to play on your "stupid bike thing with no seat"(as she will refer to it) on a saturday afternoon. is always a bonus.

[middleageman]

Cheers, you breadcrumb coated fish based snack!

I understand your reasoning and welcome your advice.

Maybe I can explain my position, I'm wary of buying 2nd hand as i'm new to this game.

Would you buy a 2nd hand blow up doll, if unsure of it's past?

I'm not wealthy by any means, but can just about afford to 'treat' myself every couple of years.

I've built a home studio with analogue synths, keyboards, monitors, effects and pc's etc. which aren't worth

a 'Woolworths voucher' anymore. I've spent more money on hobbies than Jordan has on boob jobs.

If a sucker like me doesn't buy new bikes, how will you get them in the future?

Seriously though, thanks!

middleageman

Oh yeah, 7 fractures in my skull, 3 broken noses, 1 fractured jaw, 1 fractured collarbone, 4 broken ribs, 2 knuckles and 4 fingers,

and just recovered from a dislocated ankle which broke my leg resulting in a metal pate and 8 screws! All in seperate 'incidents'. I'm sure Trials will

be fine. Heh heh.

Edited February 20, 2009 by middleageman

[forteh]

As said, if you stick with one of the deng frames (echo/zoo/adamant/gu) then you will have no problems with a 2nd hand one unless its been absolutely thrashed (which would be apparant from photos). I would offer you my echo hifi frame for 65 quid but the geometry really isnt that nice, the BB is too high for the reach of the frame; you wouldnt snap it though

The common cracking frames are generally from monty and koxx, but these are both aimed almost solely at the competition market and as such are designed to be light to gain the advantadge - you wouldnt go banger racing in an F1 car

About the only exception to this rule is the koxx levelboss, I seem to remember them being bombproof.

[Matthew62]

Hold on, hold on..... yeah get a bike...great, something will do - low gears, good brakes and all that, can't go wrong......

Now lets get on to a more serious matter...'analogue synths' - don't just throw in wild words like that and not indulge. What are we looking at? I'm hoping to build up a Doepfer A-100 system one day, adding as a go along and so on, what sort of stuff do you use? I've also built up a pretty good home studio with a pretty wide array of instruments and noise making machines, i'd be interested to know what sort of stuff you use/music you make....

I like to make experimental music and no offense to anyone on here, but judging by the music used in most trials videos not a lot of people share my taste....do you have any recordings floating around?

On a bike related note... i have found that the perfect accompanyment to an experiemental studio is an Inspired Fourplay and a Kona Coiler...hope thats of some use?

Matt.

[bikeperson45]

About the only exception to this rule is the koxx levelboss, I seem to remember them being bombproof.

I am so happy you said that! Everyone's saying Koxx's snap, I was getting worried for a minute(I have a Levelboss)

[forteh]

I am so happy you said that! Everyone's saying Koxx's snap, I was getting worried for a minute(I have a Levelboss)

Ive seen a 5 year old levelboss frame take an 8 foot drop with a 15stone bloke on board, they are very strong, the same frame is still going

Also alot heavier than the new koxx frames but hey its not gonna snap on you

[Al_Fel]

This + this =

[Matthew62]

I have a MKII Koxx Levelboss at home which only had a few months use, in great condition you can buy that if you want? The guys are right, its damned strong.

[Greetings]

I'd highly recommend looking for a Echo Control, 06-07 model. Or if you were going to get a 24'' go with a Inspired, Never hear anything but good reviews about them.

Yep, that's good advice. The old Echo Control frames were as solid as frames got. And they had brilliant geometry, both short and long.

You can grab one cheap from Tartybikes with the mod-stock hub spacing.

[forteh]

Yep, that's good advice. The old Echo Control frames were as solid as frames got. And they had brilliant geometry, both short and long.

You can grab one cheap from Tartybikes with the mod-stock hub spacing.

But dont buy a modstock frame because that can then cause expensive wheel rebuilds when you want to try a normal frame

BTW modstock = 26" frame with 116mm rear hub spacing and horizontal dropouts, as opposed to normal stock with the standard 135mm rear hub spacing

[manuel]

Id go with an old echo control or pure - 04/05 short. Bulletproof frames - still a load out there somewhere.

set of hope hubs, DX 32 or echo 07 rim rear - maybe a rhynolite up front.

set of ultimate vee calipers and a 185/205 bb7 up front and a set of SD7 levers (or better still XTRs) (may need adapters for vees)

any cheap solid 110 10 stem (my one cost £10 and lasted 3 years - still not broken) and trialtech bars.

gearing wise trialtech cranks / guard sprokets do the job nicely. a "street" Trialtech bb is as strong as you need. get a kmc chain and change it every now and again (before it breaks!!)

set of wellgo MG1's or equivalent.

PIG headset

Maxxis dual ply 2.35 highroller rear tyre / single ply front.

job done.

[Alex Dark]

Id go with an old echo control or pure - 04/05 short. Bulletproof frames - still a load out there somewhere. nah, piggish on the backwheel, id say a t-rex; cheap as chips nowadays

set of hope hubs, DX 32 or echo 07 rim rear - maybe a rhynolite up front. id say a 721 up front, echo rim on rear, good fixed rear hub, sealed bearing disc hub up front

set of ultimate vee calipers and a 185/205 bb7 up front and a set of SD7 levers (or better still XTRs) (may need adapters for vees) rear magura, front vee fo shure

any cheap solid 110 10 stem (my one cost £10 and lasted 3 years - still not broken) and trialtech bars. id say zoo bars and any 110mm ish stem

gearing wise trialtech cranks / guard sprokets do the job nicely. a "street" Trialtech bb is as strong as you need. get a kmc chain and change it every now and again (before it breaks!!) kmc kool chain, echo/trialtech etc cranks, superstar components bb, some sort of bashring , tensile freewheel

set of wellgo MG1's or equivalent. dmr v8s

PIG headset or equivalent...any good dh headset will do the job nicely

Maxxis dual ply 2.35 highroller rear tyre / single ply front. I'd say 2 minions, dp on back, sp on front

job done.

[middleageman]

Christ on a bike! Where do I start?

Thanks everyone, I can't respond to all, but I will try my best (rolls up sleeves!)

I'm understanding the Deng bashy/street/strength angle now over the comp frames.

An Echo Control seems a popular choice and I think I've read before that Zoo!'s are strong.

But why the 'older' new frames rather than the '09 models? (if this makes sense?)

I'm not really understanding the Onza, Ozonys, Rockman, MBK best of both worlds frames?

Does it relate to the fact that particular models from each brand are aimed at different styles?

If so, which would suit my needs? (or is Deng like a Bond villain, intent of ruling the street Trials world!)

Regarding 24", of course the Inspired is the mutt's nuts, but any opinions of the steel framed Reset?

As for the equipment recommendations, thanks, but did I mention I was new to Trials?

If I research all them I'll be hitting 50 before getting a bike!

If buying new, I was sort of going to take Al Fel's approach and pick a frame off Tarty and either

wham a Try-All set on it or ask their advice. What do you think about this approach please?

I also haven't ruled out the 2nd hand market. I'm not in any rush.

I realise i'm still quite naive and have tried searching posts but thought, as this was a forum,

I'd just ask. I will consider your helpful replies (strikes 'deep thought' pose ) and welcome

any more opinions please.

Thanks.

middleageman.

ps. Matthew62. I will PM you about oscillators, wires and knobs when time allows.

Edited February 20, 2009 by middleageman

[Matthew62]

Please do... wouldn't mind a bit of dirty talk about envelope filters too.

[psycholist]

I'm running an almost off the shelf Tartybikes build of an Echo Control bought at the very end of 2007 and it's an amazing bike. Only thing to watch is that the Echo forks, especially the ones with Magura mounts on the back of the fork legs have a nasty habit of snapping at the brake mounts - mine did (with no warning - this is a feature of the way Aluminium fails anyway unfortunately) after 7 or 8 months and I don't do anything big, I'm not what could be termed light though...

I'll hopefully be making use of the London ride on March 1st as a chance to try a bunch of bikes to see if my Control really is as sorted as I think it is...

Edited February 20, 2009 by psycholist