Car Help Please...

[AdamR28]

Hello to all those with knowledge about cars!

Just after a bit of help if possible please... Here's what happened and some background info:

Car: 1.4 Diesel Fiesta, 03 plate, done around 60k miles, recent service, never ragged, does 90% of miles on the motorway.

Scenario: Monday morning, on the motorway sitting at 70mph (2.5k revs) an 'EAC Fail' light popped up on the dash (Electronic Accelerator Control Fail according to the handbook). I had seen this before and it didn't cause a problem (went away the next time I started the car) so pressed on anyway as I was already quite close to work. Around 5 mins later the engine cut out without any noise or jerking and I coasted ot the hard shoulder. RAC man came out and played around a bit, the car turned over with power from the battery fine and seemed to be compressing, so he thought it was something to do with the high pressure fuel pump.

Got towed to a garage and the guy there has had a look and thinks it's something much more serious (cambelt = engine rebuild)...

I'm useless when it comes to cars but I would have thought if the timing screwed up at that speed there would at least be some noise or jerking as the internals destroyed themselves?

Anyway, any help/thoughts are appreciated!

Cheers

Adam

[the organiser]

Hello to all those with knowledge about cars!

Just after a bit of help if possible please... Here's what happened and some background info:

Car: 1.4 Diesel Fiesta, 03 plate, done around 60k miles, recent service, never ragged, does 90% of miles on the motorway.

Scenario: Monday morning, on the motorway sitting at 70mph (2.5k revs) an 'EAC Fail' light popped up on the dash (Electronic Accelerator Control Fail according to the handbook). I had seen this before and it didn't cause a problem (went away the next time I started the car) so pressed on anyway as I was already quite close to work. Around 5 mins later the engine cut out without any noise or jerking and I coasted ot the hard shoulder. RAC man came out and played around a bit, the car turned over with power from the battery fine and seemed to be compressing, so he thought it was something to do with the high pressure fuel pump.

Got towed to a garage and the guy there has had a look and thinks it's something much more serious (cambelt = engine rebuild)...

I'm useless when it comes to cars but I would have thought if the timing screwed up at that speed there would at least be some noise or jerking as the internals destroyed themselves?

Anyway, any help/thoughts are appreciated!

Cheers

Adam

Adam give me a call asap ok i will help Dave

[Simon]

If it's the cambelt the engine wouldn't turn over. Sound's like spark, it's what mine did when my distributor went.

[Sam F]

This forum is better than taking anything you need to a specialist! And it's cheaper!

We got :

Car nerds

PC nerds

Photography nerds

Bike nerds (for ovbious reasons)

Motorbike nerds

And all sort's of others that are hidden away.

[forteh]

I doubt its the cambelt, you should have heard some horrific mechanical destruction if it was

Additionally if it was turning over without any nasty noises (on the battery) then its not the cambelt.

I dont think the festa engine is non-interference so if the belt goes it destroys the valves with lots of mechanical jamming and gouging, unless you were super quick on the clutch the car wouldnt coast to a halt.

I would guess at something electrical, possibly with the fuel supply.

[Fish-Finger-er]

Car: 1.4 Diesel Fiesta, 03 plate, done around 60k miles, recent service, never ragged, does 90% of miles on the motorway.

Sound's like spark, it's what mine did when my distributor went.

Want to rethink your diagnosis a little?

Technically not all cars will fail to turn over with a snapped cambelt and indeed some dont really make a noise, but it doesnt really sound like the cambelt (as it is an interference engine). And other than the valve timing, theres very little to a diesel aside fuel. Dependant on the RAC mans knowledge, he may be spot on, or may not have a clue (as they use a guided diagnostic computer, they put in the fault, and tick yes and no boxes till it narrows it down enough for them to have a stab in the dark).

Generally speaking one would presume it would be fuelling. and it would explain the garages diagnosis (as Common Rail fuelling is rather a scary thing for many garages, partly because they dont understand, and partly because they dont have the equipment).

One would suggest asking the garage to carry out a compression test (as its rather cheap, and aside from the cambelt, which any semi trained mechanic should be able to see whether its gone in a couple of minutes tops, even if there are covers on there to take off, the compression test should be able to rule out most serious engine issues).

But without having the car in front of me, could be anything, from the really odd (snapped camshaft/rockers) to the stupidly simple (crank speed sensor) to many different issues on the fuel side.

Did you have DTUK box on your fiesta, if so, id remove it and try again, never really heard of them causing any trouble, but if it has shorted out, it only alters fuel rail pressure readings, and if it showing an excess of pressure constantly it could cause the pump to shut down, or if its showing no pressure, may stop the injectors opening till the pressure picks up again(which of course it wouldnt)

[Pashley26]

But without having the car in front of me, could be anything, from the really odd (snapped camshaft/rockers) to the stupidly simple (crank speed sensor) to many different issues on the fuel side.

This is the biggest point.

But to be honest, I'd be VERY concerned that there not taking you for a ride.

I'd get at least two views on it before I paid all the money.

The recommended cam belt mileage from Ford is 150,000 miles or 10 years. But 80/100k would be a more sensible time to have it done, so it's possible but not probable that its the cambelt.

Edited January 20, 2009 by Pashley26

[Robwalker]

invest in a haynes manual, find out where the cambelt cover is, and have a look?

Or there's always http://www.ukfiestanetwork.com/ probally going to be your best and unbiased answer.

[Simon]

Haha, didn't even read it was a diesel, my bad. :$

[Will Arnold]

i dont like cars of this age because they're usually quite complex!

first things first, plug a computer into it and get all the fault readings out. then you can decide which parts of the car need attention.

if it was an older car it would be alot simpler but ahhh well...

[trials_pimp]

Technically not all cars will fail to turn over with a snapped cambelt

Wrong, 99% of cars will still turn over with a snapped cambelt as the starter motor drives the Flywheel. If the camblet has snapped the engine will turn over, but will spin faster, and sound different.

compression test, couple of minutes tops

Your way off, A compression test on those engines is a hard and involved test. You need quite a few ford specific tools, and the glow plugs are hidden down the back, behind the inlet manifold.

The 1.4 DuraTorq TDCi Engine is a Ford/PSA Engine, it uses a very high Tech EEC V Common rail fuel injection system. Its not the type of system you can look at at home, or in some back alley garage.

My 1st tip would be take it to a Ford Main Dealer. Expencive yes, but to succesfuly diagnose this type of fault you will need use of Fords FDS diagnostics computer.

Could you give in more detail what happened when it cut out?

Did is loose all power then cut out, did any lights come on the dash, was there any noise?

These engines are designed to take care of themselves in this sort of situation, where if something fails it will Run in LOS (limited operation stratigy) ie limp home mode and will bring on lights on the dash to corespond with the fault. EAC Fail was a common problem on those cars, which most of the time could be cured by taking to a ford Dealer and having the PCM (engine computer) re-calibrated with a more up to date Calibration.

As previously stated you cant diagnose a car Without Seeing it in the flesh. You might find FOrd can Diagnose it, then you could have a friend carry out the repair.

[AdamR28]

Thanks very much for the help guys, totally understand it's impossible to diagnose properly without seeing it but wondered if I could get some pointers... I thought the cambelt was due at around 100k too, seems weird if it has gone so soon

Anyway, I called the garage yesterday morning (they are a back street type one) and while I had someone lined up with equipment to read the ECU they already had the belt off (the pulleys were shagged apparently, teeth stripped off, bearings buggered), the head off and had ordered valves and followers (think that's what he said...) so I have let them carry on. Hope that's not a mistake but if it is I guess it's just gotta go down as a learning experience... They didn't mention the block or pistons so I'm hoping that sounds a little less expensive than the original £600+ they quoted?

Lee, when it cut out it was just that - no extra warning lights, no noise (that I could detect, although there was quite a bit of road noise), it just lost all power.

Cheers again for the pointers, I'll let you know how much I get shafted for, lol.

Ads

[Mr Motivator]

Finally a sensible reply from trials pimp there. Pretty much ignore all the other advice.

Did you hear any noises from the engine when it cut out?

At 2500 rpm, if the belt went, you'd be wanging valves into the top of your pistons and would have bent them or sent them through the top of your pistons. The latter is pretty unlikely, but I have actually been in a diesel engined car when the cam belt has snapped just pulling away from a set of traffic lights, and it bent two valves into a nice S shape, I have a great picture actually. The top of one of the pistons was pretty marked but we just whipped the head off and replaced the guides and the two valves and the belt and been running fine for probably about 10,000 miles since.

It's probably more likely to be fuel. Did you know that the fuel rail runs at around 44,000 psi? If you see a leak, don't be tempted to put your finger over it

Get it to a dealers or somewhere with a diagnostic tool. It could be the fuel pump, or the regulator not allowing the rail to reach full pressure even. Unlikely to be an injector as it would still run on three.

Good luck.

[trials_pimp]

If the Cambelt has Failed then that Shoud be Done under Fords Warranty.

If the cambelt is not due Until 100K Miles and its Failed after 60K I would have spoken to Ford Customer Services 1st. They might have replaced the whole lot under Good will due to premature failure.

Even so, something sounds dodgy about that gararge. If they have already stripped the engine down and ordered parts without your consent I would be very sceptical. Gives you no chance of verifying the fault, and getting a better quote elsewhere.

I would have asked for the car back, and if they have worked on it without your permission thats their problem.

Lets hope they are right and it gets it fixed.

[AdamR28]

Crikey, didn't realise after sales service may stretch that far... I did buy if from a main dealer (used, took out an extra years warranty but its around 2 years ago since I got it) but they were wankers and didn't think they would help in such a situation. Hmm, seriously having second thoughts now... will call the garage and see what they have to say, thanks guys

[forteh]

Had a sort of cambelt failure on my old 1.25 zetec-s fiesta* when turning on the starter motor, it lunched the top end of the engine. I got a replacement head complete off ebay for cheap, top end gasket kit and sold the lot as spares and repair to the welder at work who put it back on the road without much difficulty. I dont know how different the new ford engines are but at motorway speeds a timing failure will destroy the engine

The fact the garage has taken it apart before even running any diagnostics on it seems alittle odd though, that said a timing failure should be pretty easy to diagnose.

FWIW I was quoted over 500 quid just in parts to rebuild my fiesta head, that was minimal parts and assuming the casting could be re-used; the valves were horrifically expensive, close to 60 quid a piece I think they quoted (genuine ford parts from the local ford dealer though).

Good luck with the engine

*Changed the cambelt myself and forgot to retorque the lower pulley before turning the key :$

The engine turned over on the starter and instantly jammed solid with a large crunch - of the 16 valves in the engine 5 of them snapped, and all but 4 of the remaining ones were bent beyond repair - pistons 2, 3 & 4 had damage and large gouges

http://www.fortyone30.eclipse.co.uk/fiesta/piston2%263.JPG

http://www.fortyone30.eclipse.co.uk/fiesta/piston4.JPG

[Fish-Finger-er]

Wrong, 99% of cars will still turn over with a snapped cambelt as the starter motor drives the Flywheel. If the camblet has snapped the engine will turn over, but will spin faster, and sound different.

that was more in reply to simons post that the engine wouldnt turn over it was a cambelt snappage. that some engines would turn over. and some dont (bearing in mind you dont really make a habit of trying to turn over vehicles with snapped cambelts) , but weve had a couple of TD5's, a vivaro and a combo(yea the combo and the td5 are chained, but it wasnt the chain in casing stopping it turning) that would just not turn over at all, so ive really got no idea how many vehicles will still go with a snapped cambelts, but i can confirm that some do, and some dont.

Your way off, A compression test on those engines is a hard and involved test. You need quite a few ford specific tools, and the glow plugs are hidden down the back, behind the inlet manifold.

My bad, despite having them at work, have never done a compression test on one .didnt think theyd be that bad to get to though. Out of curiousity what special ford tools are needed? Just looking on Etis now, it doesnt look that hard really, disconnect injector harness,EGR pipe off,glow plugs out, compression tester in, job done.sure its not a couple of minutes, but doesnt look that bad and the need for special tools is about zero (most garages have a comprehensive diesel compression tester, or so id of thoug).t.

Semi agree on the need to have WDS/IDS, but for a decent technician, surely an oscilloscope, a decent universal diagnostic machine and a multimeter could go a long way to diagnosing the problem. should be able to read any fault codes,and with a decent machine, get fuel pressures etc, and test and scope up injectors with a multimeter and an oscilloscope.

Used to think similar to you(and as a garage we still do, despite having ford and vauxhall warranty status, if its complex, send it back), but one of the tutors at college refused to be beaten by problems, i kinda thought he was a sad git(used to tell us how hed take a new diagnositc tester home with him, to learn how it works ) but he did kind of open my eyes, to how much you could actually do with a oscilloscope or a multimeter if you knew how to use it properly.

Adam, just seen your post, and im very very sceptical of the garage now and i wouldnt be banking much on getting the bill under £600 (cambelt change alone would be a couple of hundred id of expected.if their doing it properly, the head should be skimmed and fitted with new gaskets, another £100 or so, cost of valves and the time of repairing/refitting the lot)

[AdamR28]

Right, everything is on the way to being sorted but it seems like it will be a pricey job...

I've just been down to the garage to have a look: The bearing on one of the cam belt pulleys shat itself which popped the cam belt off. The rockers were destroyed (literally all in bits) and the valves bent, they had a go at re-grinding them but they were too bent for that. Luckily the block and head are ok but it will of course need a skim, new gaskets etc. and new cam belt kit.

So it seems the garage were being straight with me which is good, I have used them a few times before with no problems. I'm just a bit gutted it went 40k miles before it was due... I do remember hearing a few squealing type noises at low revs while pulling away in first gear, I guess that was the sign and it's truly lesson learned now!

[Will Arnold]

didn't know this engine had rockers ! is it not a standard overhead cam, with followers and valves?

[Pashley26]

How does it have rockers if the cambelt snapped

Wtf's that all about....

[!!()`/D]

Has it had a cambelt changed before? If not, then i heard if the cambelt breaks before the scheduled service times and has been fitted by ford before then they give you a new engine for free, if your engine is ruined, i dont know if this is true or just a myth but i suppose its worth looking into it as it could save you alot of money?

[Pashley26]

Has it had a cambelt changed before? If not, then i heard if the cambelt breaks before the scheduled service times and has been fitted by ford before then they give you a new engine for free, if your engine is ruined, i dont know if this is true or just a myth but i suppose its worth looking into it as it could save you alot of money?

Ford say the change time is 150,000 or 10 years which ever is soonest.

[!!()`/D]

Yeah i wasnt clear on it perosnally but hey worth mentioning..

[Pashley26]

Yeah i wasnt clear on it perosnally but hey worth mentioning..

Yeah, I'm not sure on there own T's and C's but 150K is a f**king stupidly long time for a cam belt.

I changed one with a stanley knife once......

Start the motor up, slit half of the belt with the knife. Stop the engine and slide the outer edge out, slide the new belt on, cut the inside of the old belt and push the new one on. Let the tensioner take up the slack and drive off into the sunset.....

haha, those were the days !

[Will Arnold]

cambelt and rockers? lads lets work this one out!

anyone got a diagram of the engine?