Caelifera Takes On The World

[JonMack]

The stock and the mod will most likely be showing up at different times.

Shipping rates are based on dimensional weight first unless superseded by actual weight. The box I am shipping these in, is 19lbs dimensionally, @ 8 lbs actual.

So the combined size could make it worse?

Insurance only adds @ 5 .00 USD. per frame.

Won't that change when you actually go to send it, as the package will go on actual weight, not dimensional? Are you able to package one up, take it to the PO and check how much it would be to ship here?

[JT!]

I've just read this whole topic! My eyes hurt.

Anyway, i'm a frequent flyer back and forth from the UK and USA. I'd be happy to take one or two frames across. The only problem is i won't be going home for a few months.

But anyway, just jot down my email address, jonathantrillo@gmail.com, and fire me an email a couple of weeks before you intend to ship out the frame(s) to or from the uk at any time just to check i aren't about to get on a plane. Chances are i won't be traveling at that time, but for the sake of sending an email to save $200 it won't hurt.

As I was reading the thread I was thinking to myself all the way though 'this is going to cost stupid amount of money to post'. I'm glad to see it's being resolved! Dividing up the cost of shipping to the uk amongst the riders is a good idea, but you've got to plan ahead for all the thing that go wrong, for example if the frame breaks on the first rider, you will have to refund the rest of the guys who never got chance to ride it. Also, it seemed like you didn't take into account of the cost to send it back to you?

It's a very risky thing your doing, there's sooo much that can go wrong, and it will be at your expense, i me personally i don't think it'll pay off, especially with no arrangements to send frames to the UK afterwards it seems like a big waste of money to promote the frame in a country where it probably won't be sold.

But massive luck to you and i hope it all pays off!

[Dang!]

well.. thanks for the vote of confidence. I appreciate the risks involved and am fully aware of them all. This the only way I can devise to get the frames to Europe and beyond.

I don't expect the frame to come back, I hope it will end up in the hands of one of the riders as prize.

If it breaks... the way things are going with folks in the England, and how dodgy they are being, I hope someone knows someone who can fix it because I certainly can't afford to ship it back to me and then back to England. Once it hits England it's amongst the riders, they will have to make it work, I hope they can self regulate and be responsible.

I don't know how many of you are tracking the other forums, but it's night and day. I am happy to work with and make an extra effort with all the Americans, the Canadians, the Australians, the Irish, the Welsh. But as for members of TF...

Some of you are upstanding people and I hope you get the frame first, but the rest of you are.... well.... children

[Luke Rainbird]

I am happy to work with and make an extra effort with all the Americans, the Canadians, the Australians, the Irish, the Welsh. But as for members of TF...

Some of you are upstanding people and I hope you get the frame first, but the rest of you are.... well.... children

With all due respect, you got the selection of who was able to partake in this trial...

[Skoze]

I don't know how many of you are tracking the other forums, but it's night and day. I am happy to work with and make an extra effort with all the Americans, the Canadians, the Australians, the Irish, the Welsh. But as for members of TF...

Some of you are upstanding people and I hope you get the frame first, but the rest of you are.... well.... children

I think it's more that the price has been rising steadily, and people are becoming gradually less willing to take part as they have to start shelling out more money, for no real gain.

As for the children comment, you what!? I'd most definitely fall into that section and would guarantee that the frame would get to and from me, i'd ride it, do what you asked down to the letter, as would an awful lot of other very trustworthy, bloody good riders (look at Sam Oliver, for example - i'm not comparing myself to him 'cos i'm, quite frankly, atrocious on a bike these days) Just because someone's young doesn't mean they're any less valuable to you, or any more likely to send the frame via carrier pigeon.

[Dang!]

I realize that the group of people willing to participate in this are your everyday blokes, this is what I expected, and frankly in many ways what I had hoped for.

I'm just an ordinary guy myself... I'm an ok rider, broken a few frames, could stand to loose 50 lbs, sunk way too much into this project, haven't spent much time on the bike the last few months busy building frames, and I'm getting old.

I don't care how old you all are, I'm talking about attitudes and comments.

Like money, these frames don't grow on trees. It cost money to make them, and it costs money to ship them.

The very first frame has already been sent to Canada, the rider wanted it in time to ride a comp and paid 125 USD to get it plus any taxes and duties, he was happy and excited to get it.

I don't get a dime of that money, and it's my responsibility as the shipper to make sure it gets there and make sure all the paper work is right (which is wasn't), make the phone calls to correct anything, as well as bankroll it until the payments clear.

What I'm saying is that some of you don't seem have a clue how the world functions, like children you expect things to be provided for you, and needn't worry about where or what it takes to get them.

On the other hand many of you are real stand up people and I am going to do my best to make sure the frame gets to you even if the UK version of this project falls apart.

[Muel]

well.. thanks for the vote of confidence. I appreciate the risks involved and am fully aware of them all. This the only way I can devise to get the frames to Europe and beyond.

I don't expect the frame to come back, I hope it will end up in the hands of one of the riders as prize.

If it breaks... the way things are going with folks in the England, and how dodgy they are being, I hope someone knows someone who can fix it because I certainly can't afford to ship it back to me and then back to England. Once it hits England it's amongst the riders, they will have to make it work, I hope they can self regulate and be responsible.

I don't know how many of you are tracking the other forums, but it's night and day. I am happy to work with and make an extra effort with all the Americans, the Canadians, the Australians, the Irish, the Welsh. But as for members of TF...

Some of you are upstanding people and I hope you get the frame first, but the rest of you are.... well.... children

This is a UK forum, not an English forum, the UK includes Wales and Northern Ireland. If you don't like don't ask us to participate! Sorry but That's actually a fairly racist thing to say. We're childish because we're English? WTF?! You asked for £70 for us to test your frame for you for a Month. Can you not see where we're coming from? We're not being childish. £70 over here will get you a decent frame second hand for as long as you like. £70 is a lot of money for what you're asking! Now because we reacted all shocked and declared ourselves out we're children? Sorry but that is just not on at all.

Stop thinking of England as a seperate country to the rest of the UK. For the purposes of this experiment think of us as one country. The attitudes and responses you have had from the whole of the UK have been exactly the same, we all have the same values, morals etc, so we all reacted the same. I don't get what you have against the English? Please find examples of where the English alone have shown themselves to be childish, I'd like to see where this has come from.

Can you not see it for our point of view? You asked for testers, then asked us to pay £70 aswell as provide pictures, a detailed build, a review and a video. thats a lot of work in a month!

I know you've dropped the £70 thing now, but can you not see where the hostility came from? The UK side won't fall apart. I know many of the riders on the list, and believe it or not, being English doesn't mean you're a twat. Or "dodgy".

Can you not see it's not just us being stingy? Everyone has reacted the same? How is that being childish?

I know I can get it mended if I snap it, and I'll be happy to do the testing, videos and stuff but I don't appreciate being called a child and dodgy...

[JT!]

well.. thanks for the vote of confidence. I appreciate the risks involved and am fully aware of them all. This the only way I can devise to get the frames to Europe and beyond.

I don't expect the frame to come back, I hope it will end up in the hands of one of the riders as prize.

If it breaks... the way things are going with folks in the England, and how dodgy they are being, I hope someone knows someone who can fix it because I certainly can't afford to ship it back to me and then back to England. Once it hits England it's amongst the riders, they will have to make it work, I hope they can self regulate and be responsible.

I don't know how many of you are tracking the other forums, but it's night and day. I am happy to work with and make an extra effort with all the Americans, the Canadians, the Australians, the Irish, the Welsh. But as for members of TF...

Some of you are upstanding people and I hope you get the frame first, but the rest of you are.... well.... children

You started out as you coming on with a positive attitude, offering people to test a frame for a small amount of money to send the frame on. Now it's like your attacking us, calling us children. I don't think there's been one childish post in here. People really do want to see this work, i want to see it work, but you have the attitude that we should be doing you a favor becuase your giving us the opportunity to test the frame. This isn't the case. To unbuild a bike, ride it (carefully so not to brake it), make videos, then unbuild it to build your own bike back up, package the frame up and then use your own money to send then frame on is a lot of work just to test out a frame.

My advice is, drop the attitude, come down from the cloud.

The sit down and plan this out properly, find out all the costs, consider every scenario, what'll happen if someone stips a thread, how will you make sure the frame will be sent correctly insured etc etc.

You said yourself if a frame breaks (say a thread get's stripped) you'd expect whoever did it to go repair it out of the goodness of their heart, that isn't going to happen. If that's what you want to happen you're going to have to get everyone to sign a contact saying that that is what they'll do.

Then when that's written up 100% post it up here and see what people have to say. Most people who have joined up will back out becuase they won't want to commit them selfs to paying extra money if they make a mistake, but there'll be plenty of other riders to take their place i presume.

Like i said i still wish you the best of luck.

Just out of curiosity, how did you sort out postage costs the Australia? How much did each person end up paying?

[Dang!]

I really don't mean to be racist... Sorry. And I don't want to make sweeping generalizations either. It just seems that a number of people from England are the only ones bitching about this.

I proposed the 100 dollars per person as a way to equalize everybody, not make money. The only people that had a problem and voiced their feelings happen to be English. Not a peep from anyone else, and conversely had many people that liked the idea or at least felt it was a fair way to proceed. I wasn't going to charge just the UK, everyone. So I heard those apposed, got frustrated, but realized that they were right in many ways.

So I took it off the table- the end! For f**k sake everyone let it go!

So now there are a few people who have to pay near three times this amount to get it (Australia). Hopefully they can work it out. But I am not hearing any issues from them.

Yes I can understand your response to the concept of paying that much, that is why I retracted the idea.

What I don't understand is why there are so many continued negative responses after it was dropped, and even more frustrating is why there are so many positive forward thinking responses to ways to work around the shipping issue from people who aren't even on the list...

Maybe they should be on the list?

I am sorry that I am being abrasive, it's not my normal character, between the lack of sleep and incessant prattle from this forum and only this forum, I'm on the verge of pulling people from the list.

So let's drop it- stop trying to explain why the idea that I have already conceded is such a bad one, and come up with ideas that will work for everyone.

[JT!]

So now there are a few people who have to pay near three times this amount to get it (Australia). Hopefully they can work it out. But I am not hearing any issues from them.

Three times more, you'll be hearing issues soon enough.

What I don't understand is why there are so many continued negative responses after it was dropped, and even more frustrating is why there are so many positive forward thinking responses to ways to work around the shipping issue from people who aren't even on the list...

Maybe they should be on the list?

What, so if there's someone not on the list who has an idea on how to do this, they should just keep quiet because they have nothing to do with it?!

So let's drop it- stop trying to explain why the idea that I have already conceded is such a bad one, and come up with ideas that will work for everyone.

You find out how much it's going to cost to send the frame to the first precipitant inc all fees and taxes. That fee will then be split up amongst all the riders. Becuase they have paid this amount, if they do not receive the frame in good working order, or if they do not receive the frame at all, they should be entitled to that money back, and will not have to pay for the frame to be shipped onwards. Basically, if they don't get the chance to ride the frame for a month, they don't pay a penny. You need to write that up in a document which will be emailed out, and then printed and signed and then posted back to you. This way, not only do you have everything written out so there's no argument, but it shows that the riders are serious enough, someone who can't print out a document, sign it and post it to you arn't going to be able to look after your frame. So it has two positives.

Then once all that is complete, send the frame out and go.

If you want to add into the signed document that (for example) you strip a thread, then that person has to repair it, or pay to repair it then that's up to you. But by doing that a lot of people won't want to participate becuase they won't want to have to pay for their mistakes. I personally would avoid that option and think you should be responsible for refunding peoples original share of the shipping fee if problems occurs. Besides the more people the frame makes it through the less you'll have to refund in the event of something going wrong. And if you truly believe in the quality build of the frame, you shouldn't have to refund any money at all.

So that way each person would be paying about £10 shipping (which you could make them pay for, or get £10 for each person when getting the initial shipping shared fee and set it up yourself) plus the shared initial shipping fee which would total what each rider is paying to maybe £25 which is a much reasonable figure.

Now onto the riders themselves, you made a very hasty list, it wouldn't hurt to actually phone these people and chat with them, as if one of these riders 'looses' your frame, you going to have to refund all the other guys.

I think that's pretty much everything, also another thing I've noticed is you tend to say "you'll all have to sort it out" well getting 12 people spread across the country to sort this out isn't going to happen, you're the one who's going to have to sort it all out.

[JonMack]

I agree that there are some very childish people on here, I also think there are some very bad mechanics, for example someone who would rather tap a magura mount to M6 than helicoil it (just thinking about someone doing that makes me feel sick).

Out of the mod list, these are the people I wouldnt trust/send the bike to;

Ben Beynon (Cornwall) Mod

Cadbury's (Cornwall) Mod - For this reason, and because of the way he comes across on the forum:- http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....howtopic=132863

Lab Rat (Cornwall) Mod As far as I know he doesn't currently have a bike

Ashley-Wood (Berkshire) Mod

Dan6061 (Buckinghamshire) Mod

Ozzy (Pembrokeshire) Mod

Adam-Griffin (Ireland) Mod - I really like Adam, he's a great guy, but he took a chisel to a Dengura lever to try and bleed it if the frame broke in his hands, I would not trust him to fix it!

Also, I think people should give full names as well as usernames so people actually know who it's going to.

[Muel]

Ozzy is a legend and will give the bike a good testing as will Dan6061! Who is more than mature enough to test a frame.

As for Adam he's just about the nicest guy you could ever meet, and he's clever enough to understand how to get someone to weld or helicoil a frame for him. (BTW that lever was f**ked anyway, the bleed bolt was completely mashed up and there was no way of getting at it)

[Dang!]

JT!- Don't get me wrong- I am pleased that outsiders are posting good ideas, I'm saddened that more aren't coming from members of the list

(it reflects poorly on the members of the list). Some of the best put together and well thought out posts on this entire thread have been from

Mr. Lee and Mr. Fingers, neither of which are on the list. What's that say? maybe nothing...

The list was built by the people on the forums, I really have little means to determine who is fit for the list, it has always been up to the forum members to determine who belonged, who is trust worthy. People have voiced concern on a few members in private, but others have backed them publicly. If people have real concerns about a list member they need to speak up. This is not the first time I have said this either.

Unless I control the shipping (meaning I am the shipper), it is going to be hard for me to control what is happening there. I am not sure if it's even worth trying to make sure people do what the are asked to do. I get the feeling that it's going to be like "lord of the flies" once it gets to the UK. Sure it will start off with good intentions, but sooner or later all hells gonna break loose.

The brake mounts are already Heli-coiled. The frame will come with a few spares, and I can post bits like that cheaply I think.

Adam is willing to help still, I think.

If you were to borrow a friends bike or some parts and you messed them up, wouldn't you feel obliged to fix it?

I am sending this frame for you all to share, treat it like it's yours or your friends.

I think the idea of splitting the cost to get it there is fine- But if one of the first guys dents the frame doing some silly street move, like a missed drop gap to rail,

and it creates a small crack, I am not going to refund the all the other blokes, because one guy is a basher. It's like this: you all are buying a frame for the cost of shipping,

you all get to ride it for awhile the way you like it set up, then it goes to the next guy. If someone destroys it, get pissed at him because he broke your frame.

If there is a manufacturing defect, contact me and we'll work something out. For all I care, when the 12 riders is up, start over at the beginning and do it again?

Look guys, take it for what it's worth:

There is not another company who is going to do something like this, this is an opportunity to be a part of something unlike anything else out there.

Don't act like you all are doing me any favors- I'm not buying it. building up and breaking down a bike, waaa- give me a break.

Shooting a vid and posting some pic's, for-shame you end up in the spot light- pretty tough.

again- only issues in England so far- get it together.

[JT!]

JT!- Don't get me wrong- I am pleased that outsiders are posting good ideas, I'm saddened that more aren't coming from members of the list

(it reflects poorly on the members of the list). Some of the best put together and well thought out posts on this entire thread have been from

Mr. Lee and Mr. Fingers, neither of which are on the list. What's that say? maybe nothing...

The list was built by the people on the forums, I really have little means to determine who is fit for the list, it has always been up to the forum members to determine who belonged, who is trust worthy. People have voiced concern on a few members in private, but others have backed them publicly. If people have real concerns about a list member they need to speak up. This is not the first time I have said this either.

Unless I control the shipping (meaning I am the shipper), it is going to be hard for me to control what is happening there. I am not sure if it's even worth trying to make sure people do what the are asked to do. I get the feeling that it's going to be like "lord of the flies" once it gets to the UK. Sure it will start off with good intentions, but sooner or later all hells gonna break loose.

The brake mounts are already Heli-coiled. The frame will come with a few spares, and I can post bits like that cheaply I think.

Adam is willing to help still, I think.

If you were to borrow a friends bike or some parts and you messed them up, wouldn't you feel obliged to fix it?

I am sending this frame for you all to share, treat it like it's yours or your friends.

I think the idea of splitting the cost to get it there is fine- But if one of the first guys dents the frame doing some silly street move, like a missed drop gap to rail,

and it creates a small crack, I am not going to refund the all the other blokes, because one guy is a basher. It's like this: you all are buying a frame for the cost of shipping,

you all get to ride it for awhile the way you like it set up, then it goes to the next guy. If someone destroys it, get pissed at him because he broke your frame.

If there is a manufacturing defect, contact me and we'll work something out. For all I care, when the 12 riders is up, start over at the beginning and do it again?

Look guys, take it for what it's worth:

There is not another company who is going to do something like this, this is an opportunity to be a part of something unlike anything else out there.

Don't act like you all are doing me any favors- I'm not buying it. building up and breaking down a bike, waaa- give me a break.

Shooting a vid and posting some pic's, for-shame you end up in the spot light- pretty tough.

again- only issues in England so far- get it together.

Sorry, i misunderstood regarding the first part. I thought you were annoyed at the fact that people who weren't on the list were butting in.

But anyway, this started off with good intentions but has ended in something ridiculous, it's turned into 'pass this frame along for postage costs' to 'wtf england get yourself organized, it's not my job to organize you, you pay to get it in the country, if it breaks blame the guy who broke it, if you brake it you have to go and fix it, make me a video, review it' becuase it wasn't organized at all, hell this topic was 2 months in befor you even thought to see how much it would cost to post.

Also, you keep saying england is the only place that is having problems, has one of your frames gone over seas yet?

Edited March 12, 2009 by JT!

[Dang!]

By problems, I mean:

as far as I can tell, every other country is organized and ready to go-

People are excited to be a part of this, and can't wait to get the frame.

Everyone is on board but the English.

Only the English are:

freaking out about having to pay something

worried about building and taking apart

taking pictures

taking video

worrying about who is going to break it first

worried about who is on their list

having trouble figuring how to get it to them.

I understand being fickle in these times, I appreciate being on a students budget, I know very well what it is like to be poor.

I am not making any money on this project, I am not trying to scam you all.

What don't I get?

I have no problem taking control of the UK list, dictating how this thing goes,creating a binding contract (which in order to have any weight moving

through multiple countries could easily cost $5,000 to $10,000, if it's even possible) to my best ability. But there will be some cuts.

Or I could just sell the frame and recoup some of my losses....

Edited March 12, 2009 by Dang!

[N.Wood]

I'm gonna keep out of the whole discussion thing for the moment because I can see where both sides are coming from.

Anyways, Dang I think the only thing you might wanna think about is what happens to the frame.

The person at the end of the line might either try and keep it, sell it on for their profit, be reluctant to pass it onto another rider (so the cycle can continue) or whatever... Then people get into fights about how its unfair etc etc.

Not sure what a solution would be, but just a heads up

[JonMack]

I am not sure if it's even worth trying to make sure people do what the are asked to do. I get the feeling that it's going to be like "lord of the flies" once it gets to the UK. Sure it will start off with good intentions, but sooner or later all hells gonna break loose.

I hate to say this but I think you're right. People get lazy, and their good intentions suddenly disappear.

The brake mounts are already Heli-coiled. The frame will come with a few spares, and I can post bits like that cheaply I think.

Awesome, thats good news.

If you were to borrow a friends bike or some parts and you messed them up, wouldn't you feel obliged to fix it?

I am sending this frame for you all to share, treat it like it's yours or your friends.

Personally, I'd feel awful, but there are a few people in this community have no respect for other peoples property, hopefully we don't have any of those in this group.

I think the idea of splitting the cost to get it there is fine- But if one of the first guys dents the frame doing some silly street move, like a missed drop gap to rail,

and it creates a small crack, I am not going to refund the all the other blokes, because one guy is a basher. It's like this: you all are buying a frame for the cost of shipping,

you all get to ride it for awhile the way you like it set up, then it goes to the next guy. If someone destroys it, get pissed at him because he broke your frame.

Fair enough, although as I just said, I would like to think people would treat it with a bit more respect than that, but I guess we won't know until it arrives, this has the ability to go really well, or go really badly.

Look guys, take it for what it's worth:

There is not another company who is going to do something like this, this is an opportunity to be a part of something unlike anything else out there.

Don't act like you all are doing me any favors- I'm not buying it. building up and breaking down a bike, waaa- give me a break.

Shooting a vid and posting some pic's, for-shame you end up in the spot light- pretty tough.

I agree, I love what you're doing it's a great idea, and I would love to see other companies take this kinda testing method on board, as much as I don't want it to go to a street basher, incase they ruin it for the other people (I'm not even on the list, I just like discussions), it's also the whole part of it, shows whether or not the frame is fit for all types of riders. I guess that's why it's a good thing it's not going to 12 comp riders, it's going to 12 average guys, so that it gets tested by the general riders, not the pros. Handing a bike to a pro and saying "test this" is a great idea, but pros know how to ride, they know how to hit each move as it should be done, and yeah I'm sure they break things and dent things, but at the same time I'm sure they ride a lot smoother than a lot of us.

Question, why are there only 7 (even though I assume there are supposed to be 6) and 12 stock riders, do the mod riders get it for 2 months each?

[Dang!]

There is one Mod frame amongst multiple counties. I just couldn't afford to make two.

[JT!]

By problems, I mean:

as far as I can tell, every other country is organized and ready to go-

People are excited to be a part of this, and can't wait to get the frame.

Everyone is on board but the English.

How's that being arranged for other countrys?

[Dang!]

Canada already paid and are working it out amongst themselves. People in the states are having the first person in the region pay and then work it out amongst

themselves. Same basic concept in Australia- maybe they can get a trials retailer to throw in a little. Ireland and Wales come after England... so... I don't know yet.

But I haven't heard anything but positive response from the Goat- so I am guessing it will get worked out.

[ogre]

we should start a team caelifera thread, list of the riders, where everyones free to argue their case of if they should have the frame, and how everyones shipping it, then this threads a little less clogged?

[Dang!]

we should start a team caelifera thread, list of the riders, where everyones free to argue their case of if they should have the frame, and how everyones shipping it, then this threads a little less clogged?

Please do-

Funny, I just looked back through a few pages and realized that from the time I posted about the 100 dollars- which I retracted 3 hours later- four pages

and eight days have passed, most of those posts by 4-6 people from the list.

ok- so maybe it's not so funny.

Post or email me

hinmaton@tektonics.com

This is all going to change in a hurry or it's not going to happen.

FYI: Ben Leacock says he is willing to try and manage this and make it work for you all, because he believes in the concept.

I think think that's really nice of him. If it works out, I hope you do something nice for him.

[JonMack]

Ireland and Wales come after England... so... I don't know yet.

It doesn't cost any extra to send something to Wales, England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are combined into what's known as the United Kingdom, or Great Britain (which is slightly arrogant, I don't feel we're that great at all), and as far as I'm aware Adam lives in Northern Ireland, which means it will cost the same amount to ship the frame to him, as it would to ship the frame to my next door neighbour, as our postal service prices aren't based on distance, they're based on size and weight.

[Dan6061]

I don't really like your attitude towards us now. I'm still in on this, despite having no idea how much it's going to cost me! Seeing as I'm not working at the moment, I'm a little stuck for cash, so if it is a lot, then I won't be able to afford it. If it isn't so much, then I could borrow it. I might even have a job by the time I get the frame, but I don't have a clue!

I've followed the whole thread, trying to make sure I've got it all figured out, and understand it all, but despite my efforts, I don't really know what's going on.

I know that I have to pay X amount, don't know when. I know that when I get it I have it for 4 weeks, but I don't know when that is.

I'm not worried about building it up, I can do that easily. Pictures I can do, I can video it when I ride it! Then blog it when I'm not, that's all sorted.

You tell us that Australia, Canada have already paid, but we haven't. Am I the only one that doesn't even know how much I have to pay?

You tell us to get organized, how can we when you haven't even given us the final information? We can't do it until you tell us what it is we're doing!

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

In for a WTF frame