Caelifera Takes On The World

[Fish-Finger-er]

Shipping- Very Important!

I have been working with UPS to determine the best way to deal with shipping and tracking. I decided to use UPS because they work in all the countries the frame is going and they have really good tracking software. Because these frames are going to so many different places, some with duties and VAT, some without, some will be handed off, some will take a week to arrive, etc... The most fair method is to create a flat fee for everyone. The fee is going to be $100.00 US. This fee is going to apply to all who want to participate, even those who are going to hand off frames.

This fee needs to be paid to me.

I will understand if you feel this is too much cost... but only so far.

it's just not that much for what you are getting access to.

In order for this to work, I will require this money in the next two months or there abouts. For those who are the first group, I will need it now.

The most expensive shipments are some of the first ones.

Also take note that some of your favorite Trials shops are pitching in with goodies for your build.

Not wanting to p*ss on your chips, but think your going to count a lot of people out with that kind of pricing( bearing in mind your asking someone for £70, when they might not see the frame for 9 months (or at all, if it breaks)) so they might get the use of an absolutely battered frame for a month for £70. when they could pay a customer builder like marino £30-£40 more for a custom made frame, or buy a slightly different geometry frame to the one they got now for £70 second hand (as everyone but the 1st person is getting a second hand frame), then sell it on a month later, and buy another till their out of cash.

Also the cost of posting a frame shouldnt be that much, I buy most of my motocross gear from the us, and the shipping isnt that much for a 5kg parcel. so the initial cost to get it over here isnt goin to be that much, and once over here, its going to be £10 each to post it on to the next person/free if its handed over, till it leaves the country.

Its gone from looking like an experiment/publicity for your brand. To a way that you can make $3700 for 3 frames, and get the frames back at the end of it. (obviously I realise your not going to be making that money, but thats the way it will look to many people).

[Alex Dark]

If i have to pay £70 then im definitely out dude sorry, I'd really have liked to test this frame as well....but i cant justify the money at all

[Dang!]

Well at least you realize that I am not going to be making any money on this.

If it makes it easier to digest the payment schedule can be adjusted to a month ahead of receipt of frames, I can maybe eat it on the first few months... maybe.

If you guys don't feel like this is worth your time and money to be a part of, so be it.

I can't afford to bank roll this, and I don't think it's fair to ask the first rider in Australia to pay $225 US plus duties and VAT and then the first rider in England to pay a similar amount.

The frames have to be insured each for there replacement value, even as they get beat. The replacement value is $700.00. So if it breaks, I have to pay to ship it to me, fix it and send it back out, possibly refund the rider who had it or was going to get it.

I'm doing this because I think it's a great way to help the sport, no one has done anything like this, and it's good press. Or bad press... who knows.

I and the other companies involved are putting out a lot personally to try make this a fun time for everyone.

I am not really asking all that much of you, if you don't have time or the wherewithal to take some photos, shoot some Vid, write about it, then it's you who are missing out. All of this is going to be posted and compiled, and I plan to publish this through different cycling magazines. As the riders, it will be your face, your build, your words that are in the lime light.

Again- I am not looking for testing or testers- I am looking for riders who want to participate in this year long public event. The frames are going to be given away to one of the riders, so what I get out of it is some publicity for good or bad, and the knowledge that I have initiated one of the cooler things to happen in the trials world in a long time.

If you cheap out, or feel I am trying to rob you of something. I am sorry.

But so be it.

Just let me know now.

Hinmaton

[toyota200x]

Dang!

I agree with you. A person can be offended at first with having to pay to ride a frame for a month. When I really think about it, it is a huge deal for someone to do this in the small world of trials. You have put a lot of effort into the design and building of these frames and I hope this turns into a good experience.

You are a generous and good human being.

[Muel]

It's a great idea and everything, but I just can't afford that kind of money to have one of the frames for a month, any decent sums of money like that I manage to get are going towards my motorbike fund and Uni.

Sorry but I'm out.

[Fish-Finger-er]

just out of curiousity to those people who are buying the frames? whats the end cost to them per frame?

Also, not sure if its any use to you, but we can ship a 5kg parcel to the usa of for £40, insured up to £150 as standard. if you put it down as a gift, with a value of £150. duties and vat wont be much on it(as bearing in mind, were not actually paying for the item, so as far as customs are concerned, its a gift)

[Dang!]

I am getting a lot of flak from you folks in the UK.

And maybe you are right, $100.00 per person might be too much to ask.

I can't afford to cover it and don't feel I need to.

So in the end the Americas will be treated on a per shipment basis.

For those in Ireland, UK, and Australia. We need to either find a sponsor or determine a way to cover the large shipment costs.

Until this is resolved, this will have to wait.

I will try and find some sponsors, or other ways around.

It's also possible to split the initial payment into the country between the riders there.

Mr. Fingers, you may be right about the duties. I do need to insure these frames for full value in the instance that the shipper does destroy it, I have to come up with the replacement. I would rather have $700.00 to do this than 150.00

I think that is fair?

I would love to hear some ideas?

Edited March 4, 2009 by Dang!

[RossMcd]

If i have to pay £70 then im definitely out dude sorry, I'd really have liked to test this frame as well....but i cant justify the money at all

Im on the same boat sorry This is due to me still being in school and Im without a part time job at the moment

So I have no income at all other than the parents and I highly doubt they will pay that much for shipment. 40 may be more reasonable.

[Dang!]

I'm sure we can figure out a way to make this work out, but it is going to require you to determine how to pay for the frame to get into the country.

Split it up amongst the first 4 riders, then hand it off between yourselves.

Help me find a sponsor and pay nothing...

[Alex Dark]

Like i said, i am really ready to be involved with this project and to help out where i can...

Im more than happy to document the whole riding process etc, in order to help you out...

But, £70 is a new frame to me...and i just cant do it for about 1 month of riding.

Can we not pay however much it costs to pass onto the next person?

There's a fair few of us riding it in cornwall, so thats 3 lots of postage out..... and it only costs around £15 to ship it to another part of the country.

[Fish-Finger-er]

I'm sure we can figure out a way to make this work out, but it is going to require you to determine how to pay for the frame to get into the country.

Split it up amongst the first 4 riders, then hand it off between yourselves.

Help me find a sponsor and pay nothing...

theres plenty of ways round it as far as i can see, get it ground shipped to someone who travels between the us and the uk semi frequently(or just that you know is going to the uk) who doesnt mind taking a frame over with them for beer money.

Find the price of it going one way insured to the uk for however much. every rider sticks in say £5 and that should cover it. at the end of the 12 months, you can worry about getting your frame back (i.e whether you want it back, and how its going to get back, afterall we can get it posted over for £40 insured to £150 (as in secondhand its not the end of the world if it gets damaged) and everyone sorts the internal postage out as part of the agreement (i.e it goes by hand for free if you can, if not its the riders responsibility to cover postage to the next rider(save when its moving countries)

You wait till you got a frame coming to the uk (is ben leacock still ordering one) find out their postage cost for one frame, then find out the cost of 2 frames sent together. it will be lower, you come to some sort of agreement that they will take delivery of 2 frames, and have someone come and collect one/post one on for you.

Or you suck it up, and pay the postage for the cost of the frame to the uk, and then everyone posts it themselves (as it seems had been suggested many a time in this thread) on from there, you lose the small amount of cash now, but you make that back with the first person who orders a frame due to seeing this "experiment" or riding the bike out on a ride, or seeing a pic of it in bike pics thread, or even being a test rider and falling in love with it.

as for the insuring it for $700, are you saying its going to be costing us £500 a piece if we want to buy the frame in the uk??or are you making a loss on every frame you make??

and as for not being willing to insure it for £150 ($250 dollars)if it was me, Id rather take the very small risk that an insured parcel goes missing and risk the "experiment" not going ahead and you only recovering $250 dollars, than charge everyone $100 dollars postage and have the "experiment" and the publicity never occur.

[Alex Dark]

surely it should be only insured for what it costs to replace?

And thats only materials and labour...so £130~ ish?

correct me if im wrong though

[ogre]

what is the shipping cost, with insurance? you might wanna change the rules for how this frame is handled so if you break it, it's your[your meaning the rider] obligation to get it patched up. but $100, for something i don't get to keep is stupid.

[Dan6061]

I'll have to think about this... Money's really tight at the moment, and I can't see it being worth £70 to test a frame for 4 weeks!

I can understand why it's that much, and it's fair that we all pay the same, but it doesn't seem worth that much at the moment.

Like I said, I'll have a think, and get back to you!

[ogre]

you don't need to offer shipping and boxes, i'd already planned to take the frame to muel in person and give it a good send off ride somewhere different. i'd imagine theres a few people doing that? You've changed your plan, before it was personal respocibility to pass the frame on, i'd be more than happy to pay money to bring the frame into the uk, but not to ship it around.

[Dang!]

surely it should be only insured for what it costs to replace?

And thats only materials and labour...so £130~ ish?

correct me if im wrong though

Wow...

If only you could comprehend what it takes.

Guys, I am a small little company. As in me.

I am hand building these frames one at a time.

I am importing 7005 tubes and stock from Taiwan, as they are the only suppliers of I know of. In fact I think they are the only suppliers period. Maybe China?

I am not importing hundreds or thousands of frames from Taiwan or China like everyone else.

My materials cost me $200.00 per frame.

I machine all my own parts

I bend all my own tubes

Cope, weld, straighten, heat treat...

Me all me!

A frame takes me 3-4 weeks to build on my off hours (I own a fabrication business and can't afford to hire it to build these frames)

Paint @ $100.00

decals $20.00

Total hours of fabrication = roughly 30 hrs.

If you do the math- that's $12.67 per hour if I sell the frame @ $700.00.

If orders increase I can achieve volume efficiency, over that and I have someone who is willing to do production runs.

I will have to order a lot of them and the price per frame will go up, which I may have to do anyway.

Or do what every other company is doing and have my frames built in Taiwan by the thousands and then I can charge next to nothing.

But I really don't want to do this. I enjoy providing custom frame geometry, and the ability to tweak the design.

As far as I know I am the only builder providing custom UCI competition frames.

Non of the other companies can provide this, they don't make their own frames.

[Dang!]

you don't need to offer shipping and boxes, i'd already planned to take the frame to muel in person and give it a good send off ride somewhere different. i'd imagine theres a few people doing that? You've changed your plan, before it was personal respocibility to pass the frame on, i'd be more than happy to pay money to bring the frame into the uk, but not to ship it around.

I think we have all decided that the $100.00 isn't going to happen, so let's drop it.

Instead let's discuss ways to get the frame into the country and then let each rider fend for themselves.

The real issue is simply getting it into the country without sticking one person for it. Spread it around a little.

The frame is going to Adam first in the UK, I think between he and I we can work it out to the cheapest possible. Then the next hurdle is Ireland,

which if I remember right Adam-Griffin said he would pick up or arrange.

The most expensive shipment is going to be from the States to Australia and the from Australia to England.

I will be able to calculate cost on Monday when UPS releases the discount they are going to give me.

For what it's worth it is only people in England that are having an issue with this?

[Fish-Finger-er]

I think we have all decided that the $100.00 isn't going to happen, so let's drop it.

Instead let's discuss ways to get the frame into the country and then let each rider fend for themselves.

The real issue is simply getting it into the country without sticking one person for it. Spread it around a little.

The frame is going to Adam first in the UK, I think between he and I we can work it out to the cheapest possible. Then the next hurdle is Ireland,

which if I remember right Adam-Griffin said he would pick up or arrange.

The most expensive shipment is going to be from the States to Australia and the from Australia to England.

I will be able to calculate cost on Monday when UPS releases the discount they are going to give me.

For what it's worth it is only people in England that are having an issue with this?

maybe its not in the british nature to pay over the odds for a months use of a frame???

Nah, only kidding, I think your problem with the uk is because were such a small country, with a relatively big trials scene. Weve got an abundance of good condition used frames available for a similar price to that, available both on the forum, and through mates. weve also got a relatively cheap postage system (due to the small size of the country), meaning a frame costs you the equivalent of about $13 to send across the whole country (so surely you can appreciate when people are bing charged 8 times this to move a frame round, some of whom wouldnt even be posting it). Also as were a fairly close knit group who largely get on as a whole, and a lot of us are either in university in one place, and live with parents elsewhere, but still go back every couple of weeks, as well as a few of us travelling the country fairly regularly, its quite normal for us to move frames around through mates.

on top of this, the uk's been hit harder than others by the credit crunch, so while 10 months ago, the $100 dollars, would of worked out at £48, its now 40% higher.

Also, as a nation were used to gettin screwed over by customs and excise, and the government in general at every given oppurtunity, so we generally tend to evade customs and duties wherever possible. so being charged $100 dollars a piece, for something which wed normally blag, doesnt go down that brilliantly.

[Dang!]

Mr. Fingers I think I love you.

Between the exchange rates, this economy, and our governments, I have no idea how to ever get frames sold in England. I basically have to pay you to buy them. It really sucks, I know you all are going to really like the frame.

[Muel]

Shipping stuff to Ireland doesn't cost that much as it's still in the UK, (effectively) so it's just the same as shipping to scotland or wales.

We don't need DHL shipping, the UK has some really good couriers and although people keep knocking the Royal Mail, I've only had trouble with them once, and that was sue to the strikes.

How much would it cost to ship the frame into and out of the UK? Including Ireland? Depending on the cost I might be back in. I know that for me to post it to the highlands will cost around £10-15, which at the moment is about $14-$21 (by my estimate), if the cost to get it into the UK to me is something similar I'll do it.

You might aswell let us deal with shipping it to Ireland, if it is sent and arranged within the UK it can't cost more than £15-20 surely, even by courier.

[Adam-Griffin]

Shipping stuff to Ireland doesn't cost that much as it's still in the UK, (effectively) so it's just the same as shipping to scotland or wales.

We don't need DHL shipping, the UK has some really good couriers and although people keep knocking the Royal Mail, I've only had trouble with them once, and that was sue to the strikes.

How much would it cost to ship the frame into and out of the UK? Including Ireland? Depending on the cost I might be back in. I know that for me to post it to the highlands will cost around £10-15, which at the moment is about $14-$21 (by my estimate), if the cost to get it into the UK to me is something similar I'll do it.

You might aswell let us deal with shipping it to Ireland, if it is sent and arranged within the UK it can't cost more than £15-20 surely, even by courier.

Wrong. Northern Ireland is Classed as the United Kingdom however the Republic of Ireland, isn't.

Posting and Item from England to Ireland will cost more than it will to post it to Northern Ireland. To save on postage to NI/ROI if it was posted to me at normal Postage rates i could possibly deliver to Roi when i'd finished with it to save on the postage costs, all depending on the timescale etc.

[Muel]

Hence (effectively)! I knew all that stuff, but I knew it was going to you first and I knew you were in Northern Ireland, so I was pretty sure that that was the case with postage.

[AdamR28]

While I totally understand the $100 cost I can see how it's really difficult for people to stomach... What about if each country's 'group' of riders was responsible for getting the frame into and around their country, splitting the cost evenly? I guess that would make the UK the cheapest by far (lots of riders, cheap postage between us) and some other countries alienated a bit... hmm... it's a tricky one.

Either way we (TartyBikes) have some pretty good UPS worldwide rates and amazing european rates, so if I can help just let me know.

[Simpson]

Why can't you just say that everyone pays £15 to you for hire of the frame for a month, that works out at about 50p a day, chance to test a new frame etc. And then at the end of the month the person is responsible to post (give) the frame to the next person at their own expense. That means you get £180 upfront for postage of the frame materials and covering of postage cost. Get great publicity for your new brand, possibly 12 videos and blogs of riders exp's, and constructive criticisms for how to improve the frame.

I'm not at all intested in doing it, but I'm sure loads of people will be keen to rent for £15 plus the postage costs of getting it to the next person. I don't think it will work, knowing the UK it will get snapped, or bolts threaded, who do you make responsible for welding / helicoiling costs? The person that did it?

[Dan6061]

Find out how much it'd cost to get the frame to the UK, then divide that by however many riders there are testing it. If we could all agree on that, then we could pay you in advance for getting the frame to us. Getting it from person to person is up to the individual then!

Seems fair to me? US wouldn't have to pay to get it in their country, because it starts there, but they'd have to pay more than us for person to person shipping?

England - Ireland shouldn't cost too much, and there's not that many testers over there is there? So their split cost would near enough be equal to the US - UK shipping?