Akira_Shock! Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 (edited) Hello: About the geometry of the bars. The bar has same design, we never change the design and the drawing. It must be a factory fault. About the stem, you say we had 145/40, this is a wrong info. the old one is 175/35, the new one is lower because the headtube of the frames are getting shorter and shorter, in 2001-2002, all frames has 120mm headtubes, 175mm is too long and too high. so we make lower stem for new frames 2003. Now headtubes are 100mm mostly, you feel 160 is too low. We will add a higher 170mm stem with higher geometry in this summer. By the way, the bar has different riser, different people prefer different geometry, so we will keep the 160mm stem. By the way, VIZ stem is very high stem, the geometry of VIZ stem is copy from 2000 Monty stem. The same stem Brisa had in 2002. The CNC rim looks different, but it's really too narrow for trials. For functional, I don't think this is ok for trials riding. So I stop making it. Now I will think about this. As you say, it looks really different. But maybe you don't know the truth: we don't have good selling when we selling this rim. CNC rims cost big money, drilling rims are cheaper compare with the CNC rim. We can't have profit when we selling this model. About the frame shape. I don't agree with you. You agreed GU is different. But you say all other frames looks like the same, I don't think so: Adamant looks still looks like the first Adamant.Czar first frame IVAN is a copy, I don't want to copy anymore. Current Czar frames are different from all other brands, it's very good.About the ZOO! frames, I will bring the wing design back very soon. Echo frames should be lighter, all my frames are too heavy and too strong, I want ECHO lighter, so I stop Hifi and start making LITE and PURE. Hifi is not popular at all, because we just sell a very less quantity. The CNC headtube is a very bad idea, it make frame weaker, and this cost a lot of money. So I think the only thing you are correct is: ZOO! frame. We should keep the Wing design on. In 2006, we had very bad frame selling. But you say 2006 is a good year for me. How come? We get good selling in 2007 till now, in fact. Thank you for your time to write to me. Deng Echo team 2006 and Hifi frames are basically labeled as 'dodge' by the creator. Kinda means Kobikes km1 is dodge too... should have looked into design better instead of asking rider-engineers for help! And deng admits Czar was a blatant copy. good on him Edited October 29, 2008 by Koxx_One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greetings Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 That must be a very old email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_travis Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 I would be interested to see what the email you sent said!?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eskimo Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 What's your point? Are you trying to bring down Echo or something?I'm guessing your part of Koxx? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira_Shock! Posted October 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Got sent this by some american rider... just passing the word, some people may be interested to know that deng didnt know exactly what he was doing back in 06; not trying to echo down, because it is the best brand currently for trials bikes. Strong and good value for money...but just got a bit shocked that deng admits his echo headtubes were dodgy, this kinda means a bad thing for Kobikes frames too... since that is a simple copy frame being honest..even if it has that stupid bit long gusset,... too much weight concentrated at front= not ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Echo team 2006 and Hifi frames are basically labeled as 'dodge' by the creator.No, he said they didn't sell well? He didn't "label them as 'dodge'" at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom_ Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 All he says it that the headtube makes it weaker, but then, koxx using paper thin tubing makes there frames weaker, he was trying somthing new, and it didnt sell well.This is a shit topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 No, he said they didn't sell well? He didn't "label them as 'dodge'" at all?I think the 'dodge' he was referring to was taken from this:The CNC headtube is a very bad idea, it make frame weaker, and this cost a lot of money.But agreed it doesn't really mean much seeing as Koxx are still happily producing the XTP/Sky frames with very similar designs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Weird, I didn't see that line at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greetings Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 but just got a bit shocked that deng admits his echo headtubes were dodgy, this kinda means a bad thing for Kobikes frames too...KO's have been around for ages. If there was anything wrong with the head tube area, we would all be well aware of it by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sponge Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 (edited) But Inur, KOs suffer from other serious problems. Not to be shitting on Dan or KoBikes, I have respect for anyone who starts up their own brand and produces parts... but, the KObikes frame itself is from an engineering standpoint not too great a design. Dan asked a few people for help on products including the KM1 frame... including Chris Antoniou (xris_x) this forum, who's got one of the best minds in metallurgy and engineering I know of, and from what Chris told me, "Dan seemed to have little idea about making a frame, the frame doesn't even have S-bends in the chainstays/seatstays which is to aid in rear-end stiffness and brake stiffness. The Kobikes frame was designed by an artist, not an engineer"There are other problems with it for example, brake mount vertical-axis alignment... a lot of people have issues (albeit minor, but still..) with the brake mounting and it sets the pads and cylinders in odd angles unless properly forced... (and I know there will be an odd handful of you out there that attempt to beg to differ..!)The whole rear end of the KoBikes frame is based off an Echo Team 2006; just look at the shapes of the chainstays and the yoke between it and the BB, the same except without a bashguard mount pretty much. Heck, even the booster is the same except with a different logo. Both frames evidently lacked the S-bends in the chainstays and seatstays which many many good frames do (check your chainstay from a vertical birdseye view, and you will see a slight S shape to it). I know it's a minor detail, but just copying negatives from a frame just isn't good. If I wanted to base my product off something already existing, I'd make sure to iron out any previous design faults or negativities.It all seems rather 'pimpy' and 'bling' than properly effective as a design. Taking the most eye-catching bits from different Deng frames and moulding it into one frame is nice from an arty point of view, but not from a new radical trials engineering perspective.Not aimed at only Inur!Feel free to criticise me and unload your frustration on me, but hey, what's done is done, what's said above is truth. Again, meaning no disprespect to anyone! But just had to make some facts be known. The paragraphs above are based off points made by Chris (who is a rocket scientist, yes, the actual career of being a rocket scientest...) and has a degree; so honestly it's not very constructive to try to argue against and prove your point based off trials-forum-level engineering talk. Unless of course, you do have a degree in engineering and are an expect in bicycle manufacture. Edited October 29, 2008 by Sponge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR28 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Bit off-topic, but surely straight stays are stiffer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Yep, that's what I thought too? Hence a lot of BMX companies (And Onza a while back) trying to find different BB widths to make it possibly to make their stays straighter/stiffer?Chris (who is a rocket scientist, yes, the actual career of being a rocket scientest...) and has a degree; so honestly it's not very constructive to try to argue against and prove your point based off trials-forum-level engineering talk. Unless of course, you do have a degree in engineering and are an expect in bicycle manufacture.Optional module of bike engineering in his 'rocket science' degree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Pah, degrees are two a penny these days. Not worth the paper they're printed on . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Pearson Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 As far as I can tell this thread serves to simply be inflamatory and acusatory, in short being a cheap dig at Deng's workmanship, and has no relevant or useful purpose.Closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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