A Line In The Sand

[1a2bcio8]

I certainly did, it was a Circle.

f**k yeah DUDE. Non-optional head movements.

[that NBR dude]

The reason Rich is saying "dont bother trying to contest decisions" is because he and the other mods, get hundreds of emails, PMs and people adding them to msn, asking why X person has been banned or warned and can they validate Y person. They don't get paid for what they do, so why should they sit there while someone harasses them into removing a warn or a ban?

I agree that the attitudes of some people here need to change, and trying to hide behind the internet and create a hard boy image is just sad. I'm the same on here as I am in real life, yet I dont see that of other people. There are people on here who I've not been a fan of, yet if they add me to msn or I meet them in real life, I get to see who they really are, and it changes my impression, and I'm now good friends with them, dispite not liking their attitudes on here.

I know I say this quite a lot, but if everyone stepped back from their PC, and looked at how they were coming across, would you like the way you are? What a lot of people need to do, is if they get frustrated, type out the responce they normally would, then press the back button. It helps vent your frustration with someone, without actually saying it and causing arguments.

[1a2bcio8]

I've found Rich's line(s) that delineate the current TF rule situation. I am illuminated - bad people in the bottom right square, good people in the bottom left, senior members in the top right, mods and gods (danny and tomturd) in the top left.

Sorry Rich, this is only for humours sake

Edited October 21, 2008 by Ben Rowlands

[Rich Pearson]

I asked/told people not to bother contesting things for 2 reasons. 1. As Andy explained, I cannot say I enjoying the stupid amount of people I get every week complaining, arguing, debating or reasoning with me over a decision I made on here. 2. You HAVE to trust us to make the right decisions. Trials forum revolves around the validation process, it is the sole and basic priniciple which keeps out those who have nothing to contribute and allows in those who are willing to be a part of the community. No validation process; trials-forum would not function on any of the levels it functions on today. In order for this to work, the site needs moderators and administrators to police the validation system, and to keep things running smoothly.

I know for a fact that a lot of people do not like me. I get it; I'm a moderator, many of you have been on here longer than I have, what right do I have to do this, etc, etc. But the thing is, I was asked to be a moderator. People decided and agreed that I was a suitable candidate to help run trials-forum. Its a job I'm happy to do in which I will happily say I take a fair bit of pride in. But for those people who are annoyed by the direction I've taken in trying to sort trials-forum out, put yourselves in my shoes. I receive (on average) about 5 reports a day. There are probably 2-3 big bust ups between members each month, and each one of them has a side to take. A lot of you know me in real life and are actually my friends; I've had to suspend Jon Mack recently, who I've met and know and who I actually really get on with. I've had to ban Keiron Whitfield before, who sponsers me! How easy do you think it is to make these decisions?

I am quite simply appaulled recently at the level of petty attacks, snide remarks and general selfishnes this forum has sunk to. I'm not asking you all to be friends; I don't want you to be! I'm all for open discussion, I'm happy for people to disagree. But not enough action has been taken against people recently and its pissing me off. 99% of you don't break any of the rules. You're all generally good stand up people. But it is for the few who don't care about the forum (who usually follow that phrase with everything that is wrong with the forum, ironically....) that this is a message to.

And for whoever it was that said I am above the rules or that I think I am above the rules; do you not think other mods and even Danny and Tom havn't before now had a go at me for a decision I've made or the way I've acted? I'm as responsible for my actions as you are for yours, more so perhaps.

Rich

[Mat Smith!]

Lol, im not even gonna bother, ill just use report if someone pisses me off, and watch the action not take place.

Rules don't apply to him obviously.

Even in a thread made specifically to make people aware of the rules, and to tell us Moderators will be sticking strictly to the forum Guidelines.

that circus guy pisses me right off.

Ye pretty much, The cool kinds of TGS land.

Or is it "kool kidzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"??

warn? that was un-needed.

id start typing properly like i used to if it was worth it, cos this forum has just gone down the pan, people just moaning about everything for no reason, and warning me for something what ive seen someone else do 100 times and not get banned, just because i hate senior members lol.

i might just start blocking the people who annoy me, and ill probs get another warn for this post, just my opinion but whatever.

im out.....

Mat

Edited October 21, 2008 by Mat Smith!

[Z o o !!]

Just noticed im on 80% warn

Think il lay off the argueing

il be good (A)

[Simpson]

that circus guy pisses me right off.

warn? that was un-needed.

Kinda hypocrytical there?

T-F has changed recently, the ammount of times recently I've wrote up an agressive post and clicked "back" instead of "add reply" is mad. I think for me now its nicer taking a step back and only reply to the people i can have a bit of a giggle with instead of getting involved in all the nitty gritty shit thats floating arround.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Simps

[doopdoopbedoop]

Kinda hypocrytical there?

T-F has changed recently, the ammount of times recently I've wrote up an agressive post and clicked "back" instead of "add reply" is mad. I think for me now its nicer taking a step back and only reply to the people i can have a bit of a giggle with instead of getting involved in all the nitty gritty shit thats floating arround.

I had completely noticed that about you, seeing you viewing a topic that you would have replied to a while ago and then seeing no reply...

Rich, is there a part of you that wishes you'd just written this then closed it? I can imagine all this shite replies aren't what you were aiming for.

[Pashley26]

Guess again.

Point taken ! :o/(y)

Some good things being said in this thread, lets hope it's not just lip/type service.

Bring on the old TF !

[Krisboats]

I don't personally think the moderators are doing a bad job at all, and seeing a few things behind the scenes of this forum i agree with nearly all decisions made by them. I think the majority of the problem is the half educated kids who can't come on the forum and read things with a pinch of salt. I can only imagine they either have no sense of humour so don't appreciate things that are written on here in jest or that they lack the intuition to look at things from another perspective, maybe they're lacking in both respects... who knows. But these people are the ones who read something, take offence at one part of it, quote it in their reply and blow it out of context which usually results in an argument. THESE types of people currently do and probably should feel the banhammer more than other members.

TheCircus is a good case, some people get annoyed at him, others find it funny. He never usually says anything offensive in an aggressive manner, just usually abusive banter. He also usually seems to be pretty well timed with his often witty replies. I think 90% of the stuff he says is funny, some is just bizarre which is funny in itself. Other people just take it aggressively and write things back though.

People need to take a wider view on whats written rather than being so up their own arse that they pick apart what someone says through naivety and reply to it with a comment like "f**k off and die, i'm right you twat" or "shurrup man, i int knowing that. right, so end it bitch! rofl xx"

[Fish-Finger-er]

I have to admit,recently ive not posted a couple of things, for fear of an argument, a ban, or getting beaten up.

theres a few issues as i see it: 1) the generation gap; not so much in age, but across the forum, there seems to be the groupings of people that have been around a while,(or the "in crowd" as the "Young'uns") would call them. Haz, JonMack, Matt Orr etc ( i could include prawn,bigman etc but there somehow not quite the same, as they dont seem to be quite as chit chat exclusive whores) and then the younger new generation of people that have just been validated. and they just seem to mix.

there seems to be very few quality new members coming into the forum, and i wonder if its down to validation. when i joined, you came on here, straight into the intimidating world of chit chat, and you kept schtum for a bit, kept in line, didnt make any harsh comments/took the mick out of people for a bit, because youd get beat down. Now when people are done playing in the sandbox at NMC, and graduate to the playground of Chit Chat, they already think they know everyone on the forum enough to take the mick, although most of us dont realise they even exist, and they think there well liked because theyve been validated.

Likewise, a lot of good people are having to spend a long time in NMC, so end up acting like one. And if Id just started riding,didnt know anyone on here, and had to go through NMC(not the validation process, the weeks of talking in text talk to a bunch of 14 year olds), to get to here, I doubt id bother. So a bunch more people probably dont make it through because of that.

2)the idea that because you could smash my head in on real life, you should appear like you could on the forum. you know what im about, the mansfield " if you want to call me a scammer, come say it to me in the amputheatre, ill rip your head off" "who cares if i scammed you, im hard enough to deal with you, it doesnt matter" others include " your not heavy enough to post in this topic" or the point where some one called boon " a skinny fag".

Yea your hench, your twice as stong as me, and youd kill me in a fight, but does it matter, this is the internet, no one cares what you bench,trying to look hard, you end up looking like an idiot.

3) I also think to some extent, the report button needs to be used, and needs to be able to be used more anonymously. im not going to say anyone should or shouldnt of been warned, its not my place to say, and ill keep my thoughts on what should of happened to myself. but if Deonn, or Mat Smith, or Danny Kearns posted in here "rich, shut up you f*cktard, no other mod does this,what makes it your place to?" theyd get a warn/ban. but im sure last night, in Gaz's video topic, prawn called Gaz a "f*cktard" or a similar offensive term, before giving some explanation towards it, and this was before Gaz had actually insulted anyone, hed just posted a video without wearing a helmet, and had come across as a bit of an idiot with his post.

Almost as if someone could report a bit of a post, without anyone knowing who reported, or who posted it, totally bring the personalness out of it, because in the "TGS Slegzz" defence, as much as im not a huge fan of their attitude, spelling or low slung jeans, i do think to a certain extent, a lot of their posts come across as aggressive or seeking a fight/argument, simply because of who posted it. Obviously I understand that prawn probably wasnt callin the guy a "F*cktard" hopin to get a fight/argument out of him. but if your judging things on a post by post basis, surely any offensive post should be viewed as being offensive(even if it was between mates, or not meant to cause upset) and should be warned(or not as the case may be) and if its not about the persons post, but about their general attitude etc across the forum, then surely reporting individual posts is pointless.or there shouldnt be a set number of warnworthy posts before your banned, if you post 300 times a month with many helpful posts, but 2 are offensive. then in 5 months your gone. but if you post once every month, and every post you make is a mardy one with bad attitude, a load of swearing, and bitching, and callin someone out for a fight. and youd last twice as long,wherease perhaps you should be gone in 3 or so months.

hope this hasnt offended anyone, if its gone too far with a mod, then ill see everyone in 3 or so days, if its gone too far with anybody else, feel free to invite me to battle to the death at a venue of your choice, to prove im entitled to my opinion/the act of free speech.

Also, last bit, think people should have some respect, everyone does this for free, they could just turn round say "go f*ck yourself" pack their bags, and wed be left with OTN. You've got to realise, its their place, if they dont like what youve put, its their choice to get rid of you for a few days, much like this post, if ive overstepped the mark, i realise i wont be on here till friday, but at the end of the day, i didnt create this forum, its a priviledge to be able to post, not a right. And theyve got the right to say whether what i say is acceptable or not.

[Tomm]

I agree, feel free to have a chat to me if I've done something you don't agree with. This isn't an autocracy. But if you've been banned for swearing at someone or bullying, don't bother - I won't change my mind.

warn? that was un-needed.

Warn? Why?

This is a case in point of someone (you) taking something (wrongly) on a personal level and getting upset by it. If this was another topic, your response could easily have been "f**k you then" which is how arguments start. This is the point that JD and JonMack were making earlier - half the problem is people taking stuff too seriously.

There are broadly three types of people on here.

1) Most people are just in the middle, happy to take the piss a bit but also happy to have a serious conversation.

2) Then there's a small group of people who basically just post bollocks. It's usually intended as cheeky, harmless bollocks, but it doesn't always come across that way - Remember this is TF, not offtopic or /b/ or whatever. I have to say this is mostly the older members who have been here a while and don't really take this place very seriously (not that it should be a serious place, but there has to be some kind of level-headedness). Occasionally this does seem to descend into bullying which is totally out of order. You know who you are.

3) Then there's another few people who seem to take everything at face value, and get upset by these cheeky jibes, probably because they haven't been around long enough to know all the personalities here.

People just need to think about what they are posting. Are you getting pissed off unnecessarily? Could your comment be taken the wrong way? If so, maybe rewrite it or simply click back and don't reply.

[Tomm]

3) I also think to some extent, the report button needs to be used, and needs to be able to be used more anonymously.

That's the second time someone has mentioned this today. I don't really know whether it would be possible to implement an anonymous reporting system, but I don't really see why it's needed? There's only the mods/admin that can see the report which means there's only about 6 or so active moderators that will ever know. If there are people that think they need to hide their identity from the mods, then that would suggest we're doing something wrong?!

I don't really like the idea that the moderation team is to be feared. I certainly wouldn't ban/suspend anyone lightly, only if they had been rude/abusive or something. So you don't have to be afraid of saying that you think the forum could be run differently - of course you're not going to be banned. But please remember that insults directed at any of us moderators personally* will be treated in the same way as an insult directed at anyone else. N.B. ExtremeBiker.

*or even the moderating team as a whole (as I said, there are only six or so of us so it's not really possible to insult the moderating team without it feeling somewhat personal).

hope this hasnt offended anyone if its gone too far with anybody else, feel free to invite me to battle to the death at a venue of your choice

[grant_hundley]

i think some people seem to forget, its not their forum. tom and danny own it and pay the bills.

[Pashley26]

Just had a great idea...

Hows about keeping NMC closed for posting by normal members ?

So you have to be an SM/Mod/Admin to view and post in the forum, then when the NMC's graduate to Chit Chat (don't know about trials chat because I never look) it's a whole new group of people and there's a bit of a "wow" effect ? What's the point in trying hard to get validated if you can get everything you need (bar selling) without it.

*quick edit, I would assume that the "anonymous report" idea is being raised is because people might think "ahhh it's only so and so."

I've reported a few things in the past and thought "WTF, nothings happening ?" but looking back I can see it's because I was being a bit of a wind up at the time (not on the post i'd reported though, if that makes sense). Potentially this is why nothing came of the report. Although, sometimes i've reported something and it's happened straight away so

Edited October 21, 2008 by Pashley26

[Luke Rainbird]

The thing is, a lot of posts/threads in NMC are asking for help and/or advice on what beginner bike to buy, how to backhop etc - a lot of the time a normal member's input is equally (if not more so in some cases) important as that of an SM, mod or admin. With the larger number of 'standard' members it'd be pretty silly to cut out the experience/advice of them all from being passed on to new members

It works the other way, too remember.

Although not a lot of members look into NMC very often, it doesn't mean it's not useful for us all. 'New Member' doesn't necessarily mean 'New to Trials', and we often have companies or organisers (and so on) signing up for an account in order to share news of products or events with us. With fewer eyes taking note of these, it only limits the transfer of info to those who don't look in so much

[Fish-Finger-er]

That's the second time someone has mentioned this today. I don't really know whether it would be possible to implement an anonymous reporting system, but I don't really see why it's needed? There's only the mods/admin that can see the report which means there's only about 6 or so active moderators that will ever know. If there are people that think they need to hide their identity from the mods, then that would suggest we're doing something wrong?!

its not to make my reporting anonymous, more to distance the people who are or are not being warned. (i dont see that it would ever really work too well). Its to do with the way i think some people may be unfairly discriminated against, because of their reputation of a spammer, or an agrressive idiot. (i often notice regular members, wanting to jump on anything the northern TGS sleggz say, which they then rise too, and it kicks off) obviously i dont know how the moderators view it or how they act with it, but many times ive looked at it, and thought "ah its just XXXX kickin off again, tw@" but then when ive read through it properly, they didnt actually start the argument. if it was more seen as person A vs person B. As opposed to mat smith vs inur. (just pickin out 2 names out of a hat here, but if i said Mat Smith and Inur had an argument, im sure 90% of the forum would assume it was mat smith's fault.

[Joe_Elding]

Because then Some decent topics will go completely unanswered, No offence meant but in a lot of situations theres gonna be someone more knowladgeable about it than the 20 or so Mods/Sms. Say if there was a genuine topic about something really abstract, none of the Mods/Sms and theres a high chance none of the NMCs would either (only a guess i don't think ive ever been in) and the topic would get ignored.

edit: 3 posts from when i started posting. aimed at pashley.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Joe_Elding

[Pashley26]

The thing is, a lot of posts/threads in NMC are asking for help and/or advice on what beginner bike to buy, how to backhop etc - a lot of the time a normal member's input is equally (if not more so in some cases) important as that of an SM, mod or admin. With the larger number of 'standard' members it'd be pretty silly to cut out the experience/advice of them all from being passed on to new members

What have they got to work towards then ? NMC offers everything except sales, most of the time NM's are pretty clued up so can help the other not so clued up types.

If the NMC selection was stricter the quality of user would go up, and without the influence/privilege of full members input new members might be a bit less cocky. Is what i'm trying to say.

[Tomm]

*quick edit, I would assume that the "anonymous report" idea is being raised is because people might think "ahhh it's only so and so."

I've reported a few things in the past and thought "WTF, nothings happening ?" but looking back I can see it's because I was being a bit of a wind up at the time (not on the post i'd reported though, if that makes sense). Potentially this is why nothing came of the report. Although, sometimes i've reported something and it's happened straight away so

Well, it's rare that I (personally) would see a report and do nothing. To be honest I will rarely even look at the report itself or who it was that reported it - I usually just look at the topic it links to and see whether I think it needs some moderatering. But the odd two or three times I've cancelled a report without taking any action, I have PM'd the person reporting it just to let them know why etc.

[Pashley26]

Well, it's rare that I (personally) would see a report and do nothing. To be honest I will rarely even look at the report itself or who it was that reported it - I usually just look at the topic it links to and see whether I think it needs some moderatering. But the odd two or three times I've cancelled a report without taking any action, I have PM'd the person reporting it just to let them know why etc.

Oh yeah yeah, I'm not having a dig at the report system. 9 out of 10 times it seems to work really well. I was just hazarding a guess at why people might be hinting at the anonymous idea.

[george_seamons]

And to further that, none of us (moderators or admin) get paid to do what we do. 90% of us work at least a 9-5, or at uni, so when we come home after a days slog to find some petty argument and numerous reports, we are bound to possibly make a rash decision.

I personally have never permanently banned somebody. I've handed out a few 48 hour suspensions when they were more than due, but other than that, I think I'm a fairly laid back when it comes to "discipline". This could be seen as good or bad, depending on which side of the fence you look at it from.

As "we've" said countless times, use the report button. It makes things SO much easier. It links directly to the post in question, so there are no queries about which post it is etc etc. (However, make sure you mean to report, not reply! It makes me laugh the amount of times you have reports that were supposed to be replies to a post...come on, is it really that hard?!"

At the end of the day, "we're" human beings, most of the time we will be understanding, but if pushed too far, we're bound to snap. I don't like suspending people, because I know its annoying to not be able to access the forum, but if you don't give "us" any other option, then we have no choice"

The recent popularity increase in trials riding was always going to bring more people to the forum, that was obvious. I don't think its so much a case of people being dicks because of their persona, per se, its more a case of personality clashes between people. (however, equally, I could reel off a list of people this didn't apply to!)

And with regards to Rich's comments about not contesting the rules, and we don't make the rules etc. At the end of the day, what he said was true. Ultimately, (as elitist and big-headed as it sounds) you're future on the forum is down to us, so arguably, we DO make the rules.

People seem to forget that warns can be removed as well as added, I quite often go through peoples' warn logs, and check their warns, and if there is anything in there over a year or so old, provided it is justified to do so, it can normally be removed.

Hopefully this will all blow over in the near future, and this place will be what it used to be once again. Until then, everybody TRY to make an effort! (and as a side note - Mat Smith, what you said about not making an effort, because this place isn't worth it; that is a ridiculous thing to say, thats where half of the problem lies! People like you are the ones bringing the forum down)

[JonMack]

I think one of the problems that will come up now is that instead of people arguing, they will quote the rules at people instead, which is just as childish and pathetic as arguing. As Tomm said, Mat took something personally so thinks the other person should be warned for it. It's so stupid.

We all know the rules, we've all read them, but that doesn't mean we need to be little bitches about it and go crying to a mod. Man up and just let it go.

I was on the phone to my friend earlier, and called him a little bitch f**king piece of shit, but as he knew I was joking, he didn't say OH MATE I'M GONNA SMASH YOU UP, I guess the main problem with the internet is the fact that you cant judge the way in which something is said, unless you put a little smiley face or something, but the thing is, if someone calls you a fanny or a twat, then just let it go, at the end of the day, they're the one being a child.

Slegzzzzzzzz!

[Revolver]

but the thing is, if someone calls you a fanny or a twat, then just let it go, at the end of the day, they're the one being a child.

Word.

When people call me anything, I tend just to avoid it.

I don't like confrontations, and I most certainly don't see the point over the internet.

[JonMack]

Oh PS, I love how I've been mentioned like 3 or 4 times in this topic, wahoo!