AdamR28 Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 any uni people care to contribute?boosters make your brake hold better, and that is a FACT.There is measurably more power being delivered to the rim with a booster, assuming equal amount of pressure applied to a non boostered lever and one with.Precisely, and this is why brakes with boosters have better hold. More force = more friction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Fel Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Precisely, and this is why brakes with boosters have better hold. More force = more friction.Thats in the physics world when you add people into the equation everything changes. If I pull a brake thats too hard and hurts my finger then I wont get the best out of my brake. I'm not a machine I don't apply the same amount of force everytime I pull the brake. Again if I pull a brake that is too spongey then its going to hit the bar or the seat stays will just felx out of the way and make the brake slip.What i'm trying to say is I think there is an optimal stiffness to the perfect brake. If its too hard then the rim will push back (so to speak) on my finger and stop me pulling the brake so hard. Obviously this is only in a hydraulic brake. I think thats why V brakes have so much hold because the cable flexs a bit. I dunno I might be talking shit but this is how it all works in my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR28 Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 I might be talking shitThe master Nah, but the bit about V brake cables was a bit daft man - it's just that they don't allow the pads to rock.I do agree that there is an optimal stiffness to allow a human to get the best out of a brake, but if you apply the same force every time the brake will have more hold with a booster than without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Dark Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 I do agree that there is an optimal stiffness to allow a human to get the best out of a brake, but if you apply the same force every time the brake will have more hold with a booster than without.tahts what i thought....obviously a booster will reduce noise as it reduces vibration, but it should, theoretically, reduce the amount of power being wasted making the seat stays flex..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 I wonder whether people saying their brake felt shit after putting a booster on was just them having their brake not set up quite the same, and not giving their pads time to bed in to the new angle? Just tweaking the angles of the cylinder slightly made a massive difference to my brake, so if you've put a booster on and haven't set your brake up 100% right afterwards, it's understandable you might think it's a bit shit. But either way, they definitely increase hold simply because of the way it holds the cylinders in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted September 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 I wonder whether people saying their brake felt shit after putting a booster on was just them having their brake not set up quite the same, and not giving their pads time to bed in to the new angle? Just tweaking the angles of the cylinder slightly made a massive difference to my brake, so if you've put a booster on and haven't set your brake up 100% right afterwards, it's understandable you might think it's a bit shit. But either way, they definitely increase hold simply because of the way it holds the cylinders in place.Couldnt be more right if youd tried. I blame everything on my set up!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Same as people doing a grind, not giving their pads time to bed in to it, then going "This grind is shit, wah wah wah" and grinding again instantly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gzus11 Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 "flex is bad mmkaay"the person is a major factor and opinions are subjective, i have noticed my fingers get a little pain now the brakes are stiffer, but ill get used to it as having stronger brakes is more beneficial than spongy ineffective brakes and comfy fingers. from a design perspective, frame flex it the limiting force that can be appled ny the brake, force applied to rim= force deflecting the frame.I much prefer the situation where the limiting braking force comes from my arms and fingers, and not a flexing brake mount.think about your cars/motorbikes/ or even disc brakes these callipers have no (noticeable) flex in order to apply maximum braking force.imagine a BMW(anything) at 70Mph maximum braking force is limited by the grip tires have on the road surfacehence ABS and not flex/play/failure of the callipers.no rider is wrong when they say X brake is better than Y brake, but in engineering/design terms flex is bad, it causes a limiting situation (like our braking force) and puts additional stress/strain on the material (cracked mounts)Ps, I am no expert rider.Pps, ha strange indeed, the saracen frame gets me by for now, untill I get a nicer frame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_Neal Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 I wonder whether people saying their brake felt shit after putting a booster on was just them having their brake not set up quite the same, and not giving their pads time to bed in to the new angle? Just tweaking the angles of the cylinder slightly made a massive difference to my brake, so if you've put a booster on and haven't set your brake up 100% right afterwards, it's understandable you might think it's a bit shit. But either way, they definitely increase hold simply because of the way it holds the cylinders in place.Although when I swapped frames, it took me a few rides to get my brake set up properly and it was still far better even when set up badly than when I was using a booster before - probably just me though.Some movement must be good for absorbing the vibration from the brake rather than having it as rigid as it can be - like bending your legs when you jump off a wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psycholist Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 There are a lot of variables involved in how a brake feels and works, so saying yes or no to a brake booster (Not to mind the type of booster chosen, frame, pads or brake) is never going to have a definite answer (That'd be why most people gave the setup they used when saying whether it worked or not). As for arm pump and whether it's improved or worsened by a stiffer brake based on cycling off road with a rigid fork, just holding onto the bars gives arm pump because your arms are always being moved/vibrated by the bumps you're rolling over, so there's a constant change in the tension in your arm muscles, particularly the ones that allow you to grip the bars. In trials the movement is usually from hopping to stay balanced (One off big moves seem to make no difference to arm pump). If the brake lever is stiff enough that your braking finger doesn't move a lot relative to the other fingers as you hop around with the wheels locked, the tendons in your arms should take less of a hammering, reducing brake pump. The other behaviour that could be occurring is that when the lever comes to a reliable dead stop, you can set it to bite nearer the handlebar and know you'll still have full brakes. This means with the wheels locked all your fingers can be curled near the bar and you can have the brake lever sitting nearer your knuckle, giving you more leverage over it, reducing the tension in your arm muscles from holding the brake.I don't know enough anatomy to know which is more likely to be right (Or if something entirely different happens). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Fel Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 I'm personally not going on whats theoretically better I'm explaining my experience. And i've found that If a brake is too stiff it dosen't work very well but, i've found the same if a brake is too flexy.When I had V brakes on my first Leeson they were SD7's with standard pads and a smooth rim. I got a new Leeson and had Ultimates on that. I found the Ultimates were not as good as the SD7's I personally think it was because they were too stiff. Like I say this is just what i've noticed riding for the last 8 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weebryan Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 when i had my caisso i ran without a booster and felt fine then i tried my try-all 2 bolt booster and wasnt as grabby and the hold wasnt as good so i took it and ran fine as too with my xtp but my dob is far to flexy so i use it on it, my preferance is without if you can get away with it and the set up will be better and easyer to give you a good brake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali C Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 for me...stiff brakes = arm pump.....softer brakes = happy times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Roach Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Having a booster may make your brake feel more solid but in some situations it wont make the brake work better. There are soo many different combinations that will work well with a booster and some others that will not. The main thing to do is make sure the pads are parallel with the rim and make sure there are no air bubbles in your brake. Another thing which I like doing is having the pad on the non-drive side further away than usual and having the drive side pad closer. This will improve the feel of your brake aslong as the cylinder with two hooses going in are on the non-drive side. Also you wont suffer from the rim rubbing on the pad on the non-drive side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionic Balls Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 previous topic..get onto page 2 of that and there's a few ideas floating about... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted September 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 Having a booster may make your brake feel more solid but in some situations it wont make the brake work better. There are soo many different combinations that will work well with a booster and some others that will not. The main thing to do is make sure the pads are parallel with the rim and make sure there are no air bubbles in your brake. Another thing which I like doing is having the pad on the non-drive side further away than usual and having the drive side pad closer. This will improve the feel of your brake aslong as the cylinder with two hooses going in are on the non-drive side. Also you wont suffer from the rim rubbing on the pad on the non-drive side.Some handy advice there man im going to try that on my bikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant Peters Posted September 17, 2008 Report Share Posted September 17, 2008 The old Shimano carbon V brake booster was the best... Makes brakes on v mounts immense!! I have two yay... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted September 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 (edited) The old Shimano carbon V brake booster was the best... Makes brakes on v mounts immense!! I have two yay...One more than me, two more than Ben Travis. Yes they are amazing. Edited September 18, 2008 by Ross McArthur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 I think the fact of the matter is, is that there is an optimal break stiffness and flex ratio. IF you think about when a frame flexes out then it flexes back in aswell and I think that has something to do with the braking performance. I think someone who's at uni should do a study on it lol.I think the optimal break stiffness is 100% stiff. I can't see any benefits in having any flex in the frame. If a frame is flexing out power is being diverted, and when you release it's just going to make your brake feel spongy as the frame will have to flex back, then the brake will be released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionic Balls Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 with flex comes bite...and people love a good bite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_Neal Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 for me...stiff brakes = arm pump.....softer brakes = happy times.I agreeprevious topic..get onto page 2 of that and there's a few ideas floating about...Interesting bits in there. I'm still slightly confused as to how making something as rigid as it can be reduces vibration............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psycholist Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Interesting bits in there. I'm still slightly confused as to how making something as rigid as it can be reduces vibration............It doesn't - the stiffer it is the higher the resonant frequency, and if the frequency is above what we can hear there is no vibration as far as most people are concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 with flex comes bite...and people love a good bite.How does that work out? Spaghetti flexes like crazy and unless you cook that shit al dente, there's virtually no bite at all But nah, I genuinely can't understand how having more flex would give more bite? I'm pretty sure if a brake's set up well with a decent rim and a decent set of pads then you'll get bite either way, and I'd imagine it'd be more down to setup rather than how badly designed and flexy your frame is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionic Balls Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 ok...well of course there's extreme cases where the frame is so flexy the brake is just terrible...get a booster...but, as i was saying in the other thread, i think flex helps bite because as the brake is applied the seatstays twist outwards (the brake mount is at the top of the tube), and this means that the pad is being "toe-d" in forwards giving a biting action- very much like the way the play in a v-brake makes them lock up something awesome when riding backwards...adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan6061 Posted September 20, 2008 Report Share Posted September 20, 2008 I got some new Try All clamps, so my brake is always flat on the rim, and some new Koxx Browns with a fresh grind. Set it up with my booster, let the pads bed in, and it was... alright.Took my booster off, and the brake improved so much! A lot louder, holds better, locks instantley.Brake still feels solid too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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