"the Trials Video"

[Steve-A]

While I'm on a roll....

I think another factor is the size of BMX. There are plenty of lame BMX videos about, but they wont get seen by trials riders they will get lost in the BMX forums. So its only really fair to compare the best trials video to them. I know people are mentioning Rowan's videos, now Rowan's a great rider and an awesome guy, but its its riding that keeps those videos afloat. The videos themselves, aren't bad, but they really aren't particularly special. Rowans line,s and choice of lines are what makes those videos. There are a few moving shots and stuff as opposed to just static shots and fish eye, but it doesn't exactly break the mold.

On the subject of BMX videos I just watched those videos people have linked too, and whilst quite nice I stand by my point that they are very formulaic, just as trials videos are. They all have that seem tone and feel. Its different to a trials video, and IMO nicer, but it doesn't stop it feeling repetitive and un-imaginative after a while.

[AdamR28]

All great points Steve, nice one.

On the subject of BMX videos I just watched those videos people have linked too, and whilst quite nice I stand by my point that they are very formulaic, just as trials videos are. They all have that seem tone and feel. Its different to a trials video, and IMO nicer, but it doesn't stop it feeling repetitive and un-imaginative after a while.

Something I couldn't work out how to say, hit the nail on the head (for me)...

[boon racoon]

I agree Steve, it's lack of effort. It's riders who want to get videos up onto the forum as quickly as possible to show off their new 45 inch sidehop, which compromises the video's quality (editing and riding)

Riders (a large chunk) don't take enough time to film each video they make - don't make sure everything is well framed, composed and looks as good as it could. Hell people put enough on/offs or blagged gap clips in videos these days. And that's the same for filming lines, no one bothers. People put in their biggest sidehop which they're stretching to land. Take a couple of weeks longer to film the video and they'll be (or could be) landing it more comfortably and could link it together with something else without worrying about f**king up a decent move.

Things which kill all videos most are

a. ) Most clips from big rides, with 50 riders in the background. It looks shit and it distracts from the quality.

b. ) People going "YEAH" or whatever after every clip, and leaving the sound in. It's ok now and again, but not all the time.

If I'm filming I'm well picky about smoothness (probably cos I can't do anything big) and each move has to be pretty much perfect before I'll want it in a video. I don't even like bags, bikes or people in the background of clips cos its distracting. Which Rowan hates cos he has to film. But he's the same when he's riding and I'm filming - which I don't mind at all.

So maybe it's finding a decent filming buddy who's willing to spend some time and not just go "yeah..that'll do"

Edited August 11, 2008 by boon

[Steve-A]

You raise a good point about the filming buddy Matt.

When a video is shot by an individual then it has a consistency to it, even if thats a constant shakey wonky feel . When a video is shot by lots of randomers, each holding the camera differently, each looking for different things when they look through the view finder, it'll often end up feeling bitty. Finding a camera man who works well with you and your riding, or vice versa, is very important.

To carry on using you as an example Matt, you say to you smoothness is key. Even a concept as small as that can be basis that links the whole video and gives it that together feeling. As long as between the rider the camera man and the editor the original vision is kept as a focus for the video. Going back to BMX videos, if you watch a full length DVD each rider has their own style, and if its a good video each segment would be shot and editing slightly different to express the rider more. The techy guys will need a different approach to the guys who are all about going big. Like wise, and obviously, a TGS video needs a very different approach to a streety 24" video.

[Mark W]

On the subject of BMX videos I just watched those videos people have linked too, and whilst quite nice I stand by my point that they are very formulaic, just as trials videos are. They all have that seem tone and feel. Its different to a trials video, and IMO nicer, but it doesn't stop it feeling repetitive and un-imaginative after a while.

The Mike Mastroni and Mutiny ones are pretty similar, but I'd argue the style used in Tate Roskelley's 50:50 section was a fair bit different? In the same way again that this is different but still pretty sweet:

Youtube Video -> Original Video

[walker]

Just thought i'd go onto the videos page and click on the top one, see how stereotypical it was:

http://www.vimeo.com/1508792

Without trying to pick on the lad, can we give him some constructive criticism? I'll just start by saying the intro seemed poor; it was a few shots of his battered chainstay and white flashes in line with the music (which wasn't a good choice in my opinion).

I'm certainly not saying that my next video is going to be breathtaking; I dont have the time or imagination to do it, but i do want people to see my riding and give people something to watch that is that bit different.

Andrew

[manuel]

Its a tough one ...

Ill agree straight away with steve that video wise mine are pretty shonky - but i have at least tried to do things to keep it looking ok (and maybe a bit different to the trials norm ?).

I think most importantly - Trials videos are filmed by trials riders riding buddies - now unless you happen to ride with someone who knows about how to do that sort of thing properly, and has the right equipment - you aren't going to end up with the best results ... I agree though - I wish people would try

Bmx videos done well are awesome - as are skate vids, but the style of the movement in those sorts of videos seems to lend itself much better to film - For example a bmxer generally rolls pretty quick through a frame uses mostly flat ground and only generally uses 2 levels - ground and one other. If you look at trials videos - to make the riding good enough you need awkward obstacles and many different levels with a fairly slow general movement... which makes filming (and getting the right angles) pretty tough. The simpleness of bmx owns trials for watchablility. Im not saying its impossible to film a good trials video - just harder maybe. (what with the riding buddy cameraman its doubly worse)

Everybody needs to see Crux - as thats a pretty good effort as far as the filming goes (obviously the riding is insane which helps...)

Problem in terms of professional production for trials companies is money. Trials is tiny in comparison with bmx. The market for a trials DVD is tiny. there is no way a company could justify spending that amount of money on video production - it would never make a return - If you went on dragons den asking for money for your Trials DVD making company they would laugh you out of the studio - even that cross eyed bloke would give you a hard time ....

Probably made not a lot of sense - but just a couple of thoughts ...

[Steve-A]

To me Mark that is very similar to the others.

So lets rip it apart. We open with rolling shots, low down fish eye. Now People use these show because they look great some times, so fair enough.

Its nice golden sunshine, friends about, fairly ambient electro/rock song. 9 out of 10 shots fish eye, zoom out as rider approaches, zoom in and whip pan, or zoom to follow as rider goes away from camera. Grungy gritty title graphic, very nicely executed. Also in that video, I felt there was little dynamic change The pace stayed constant , even as the music changed. I watched it through, but I was bored after 1/2 way mark. The riding was cool, and I'd watch the video for the riding, even if the video itself bored me, but thats not the point here.

To me thats the same as every 'good' BMX video. Its the same with most extreme sports. I'm quite into climbing and when I look at climbing videos they are all the same. If its a dvd, open with montage of cool shots, people miles up cliff faces etc. Then travel montage, then try some routes, fall off lots. Have some bloke chat about how this is 'awesome' and how 'stoked' he is on this line, then see him send it. They all follow this pattern. Again with the very popular high saturation and subtle white diffusion thats common place with sports videos of the moment. Now the reason they use white diffusion is that DV and HDV are both compressed formats that end up with very harsh whites, so a bit of white diffusion is often appealing to look at but its mostly over done IMO.

I'm kinda off topic here I guess, but most forms of video have their own style that they settle into. Go watch a bunch of recent horror films they will all use the same treatment etc. its very hard to break the mold and come up with a new way of making a video thats pleasing. I suspect most extreme sports videos follow patterns they do as it has eveolved over many years and is effectivly the best way to convey the 'story' they have to tell. But there's no denying that from an artistic point of view its often dull and monotonous.

To copy BMX videos will never work for trials. What's needed is to find a pattern, to find a style that works for trials, making it both interesting , and have an atmosphere aswell as showing off how big that sidehop really was. So people, go out and create!

[Mark W]

To me Mark that is very similar to the others.

So lets rip it apart. We open with rolling shots, low down fish eye. Now People use these show because they look great some times, so fair enough.

Its nice golden sunshine, friends about, fairly ambient electro/rock song. 9 out of 10 shots fish eye, zoom out as rider approaches, zoom in and whip pan, or zoom to follow as rider goes away from camera. Grungy gritty title graphic, very nicely executed. Also in that video, I felt there was little dynamic change The pace stayed constant , even as the music changed. I watched it through, but I was bored after 1/2 way mark. The riding was cool, and I'd watch the video for the riding, even if the video itself bored me, but thats not the point here. (EDIT: And I could count the amount of clips from the Mutiny web-edit posted at the start of the thread on one hand )

To me thats the same as every 'good' BMX video...

To copy BMX videos will never work for trials. What's needed is to find a pattern, to find a style that works for trials, making it both interesting , and have an atmosphere aswell as showing off how big that sidehop really was. So people, go out and create!

I knew you'd comment on how that first clip was sunny, but where he was riding back in the UK, not on a riding trip to Malaga, it was pretty different? Tightly done up hoody, etc. The intro to the whole video that came from even has them riding in the snow and rain...

Equally, I'd say that if you looked at Tomorrow We Work compared to Chill Bro compared to That's It compared to Insight (4 of the best videos of the past few years), they are all pretty different. Yes, they all use fisheye shots, but that's not too surprising. Yes, they all use rolling shots, but that's because without setting up a shitload of individual cameras and doing a lot of panning, you'd do pretty well to try anything else? A lot of BMX videos are from America where you're more likely to have clement weather, and equally, most people ride when it's not wet outside? I don't think people are specifically trying to make it summery (and Joe 100% wasn't with Tomorrow We Work), I think it's just that if you ride when it's good weather, it IS going to look summery?

I haven't been trying to say that trials needs to copy BMX either, I was just using examples of 'amateur' videographers from BMX to show the differences in care and attention to detail than from trials videos. Bearing in mind that Mike Mastroni dude is effectively the same level of amateur/pro compared to that trials rider linked to a few posts up, there's a massively noticeable difference?

[bikeperson45]

Just wait till I do a video,

it will be so good it will blow your brains out of your ears and nostrils.

[Steve-A]

I agree with what your saying mark about the practicalities of filming a BMX video and what works best. But I stand by the fact that they are as similar to each other as each TGS clips to metal music video is to the next. I quite like the feel of BMX vids its great, and people pick nice sunny shots to open with because it looks nice, but that doesn't stop it feeling a little dull after a while.

I reason I mentioned trials copying BMX is because thats basically how the thread started, 'why cant trials videos be as cool as this...' in other words.

You must see where I'm coming from about genre specific editing/shooting/direction styles?

There are amateur trials videos that are technically as good as BMX videos like the Mike Mastroni one you posted. But as others have touched on, there's a larger pool of BMX videos to choose from, and I'm sure plenty are as rubbish as most trials videos.

Anyway as you say this isn't about BMX Vs Trials vids. There's no reason trials videos shouldn't be entertaining. Just the current state of trials videos is stagnant and needs shaking up.

[Rusevelt]

So many good constructive comments made on this topic, its just unfortunate that NOT EVERYONE will take note to understand and appreciate what has been said and stated here. personally i don't care what video tool is used, just as long as the person using that tool understands how use it properly with a little imagination. Experience is what makes a good video and lets not forget that bmx has come a very long way to making/documenting the reference standard of riding videos we see and appreciate today.

[Mark W]

To be honest though, in that I spend quite a bit of time lurking BMX forums, there really aren't that many truly awful videos, especially in comparison to how many trials vids I simply cannot watch because I find myself physically repulsed as soon as they start matching black screen flickers to drumbeats In BMX, people really do look up to good videographers, and as such, even if the riding's not amazing then it'll usually be edited in a pretty nice way so it's reasonable to watch. It just doesn't seem to happen like that with trials.

[Rusevelt]

To be honest though, in that I spend quite a bit of time lurking BMX forums, there really aren't that many truly awful videos, especially in comparison to how many trials vids I simply cannot watch because I find myself physically repulsed as soon as they start matching black screen flickers to drumbeats In BMX, people really do look up to good videographers, and as such, even if the riding's not amazing then it'll usually be edited in a pretty nice way so it's reasonable to watch. It just doesn't seem to happen like that with trials.

Maybe you should set up a HALL OF FAME trialstube where only the best collection of trials vids get uploaded to. At least those vids will set a reference standard in which everyone can look up to and appreciate. Edited August 11, 2008 by Rusevelt

[Steve-A]

In BMX, people really do look up to good videographers, and as such, even if the riding's not amazing then it'll usually be edited in a pretty nice way so it's reasonable to watch. It just doesn't seem to happen like that with trials.

I agree with you there. People do look upto good videographers in trials, but its not often a high priority. Its a cultural thing I guess.

As proven by responces in this thread, some riders will openly say all they want is clips of people riding, no filler, no atmosphere. And I can only assume that wit hvideos comprising of this the flashy antics peopel put into their videos to liven things up a bit.

Theres a time and a place for flashy antics, [Rowly] Everyone has to go too far to known that they've gone too far [/Rowly]. Only with experiance can you know whats the bets lien to take in making videos.

Whilst I've been learning to make videos I've been taught many lessons, one I'll allways remember that video editing comes down to taste values. You have to adjust your video to suit the taste of those watching, and every editing and shooting decision you ever make allways comes down to taste.

Talking of which. Heres one of my videos, thats appaulingly flashy. Showing little taste, very ott. None the less its one of my favorites! Ah the joys of beeing 15...(or so)

Youtube Video ->

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[Ollie Histon]

Some really interesting discussion here, didn't think i'd go out and then come back home to discover this much of a debate. I've decided that my contribution is going to be a sort of guide to think about when filming a video, taken from the points made in this topic.

The Idea

1.Think about the kind of theme your video is going to have.

2.Take inspiration from any kind of film, doesn't have to be a trials video; look at movies or music videos.

3.Sit at home in bed, think about places you ride and lines you could film, how you're going to shoot them and make it look good.

Shots - Used questions as there is no real right answer to them

1.Angle - Wheres going to show the line best? Most interestingly? Most origionally?

2.Composition - Whats in the shot and where? and how will it effect it's quality?

3.Distance - How far away from the rider and what effect will it have from this distance?

4.Focus - Try and make the shot crisp as possible, depending on the quality of the camera being used obviously.

5.Stability - Everybody hates a shakey camera, makes your shots smooth and STILL!

5.Movement - How could this improve the creativity of the shot? A slow zoom? A shot following the rider along? A panning shot?

6.Most importantly, watch your shot back, if it's not how you imagined, go back, perhaps change some of the above factors and try again.

Lighting

1.Think about the sun's possition, and how it will affect the lighting of the shot.

2.If you absoloutley HAVE to shoot at night, create your own light source, it could actually create some nice effects in the dark.

Sound

1.Preferably get your mates to shut up a bit, you don't want your video ruined by their voices.

2.The song, possibly the hardest part, but link it to the kind of theme and feel you wanted your video to have in the beginning.

Editing

1.TAKE YOUR TIME - editing things like music videos professionally can take up to a week of 10 hour days, so don't rush it.

2.Don't over do it - too much flashing, dodgey transitions and effects will ruin in and make it look extremely amateur.

3.If you've taken good enough footage, usually all it needs it to be simply put together and the shots will speak for themsleves.

4.Consider sound editing, if theres an awful honking brake, maybe turn down the clip's sound a little, and balance it out with the music.

5.Nice soft fades usually work best between clips, but even these can become repetetive.

If theres anything you disagree with or think i've missed please point it out.

Edited August 11, 2008 by chunky

[Danny@phatworks]

Talking of which. Heres one of my videos, thats appaulingly flashy. Showing little taste, very ott. None the less its one of my favorites! Ah the joys of beeing 15...(or so)

Youtube Video ->

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[ding_dong]

as much as i don't want to say these two things, i realy enjoyed that video, asmuch as i dislike bmx (sorry ollie) and the other thing i don't want to admit.... ollie is right! i would love to see a realy well made trials vid, with lots or realy good riding!!

i haven't read the full topic 'cos im lazy but im guessin thats the gist (sp?) of what has already been said so if it is don't come givin me BEEF!

EDIT: another thing that realy fu*ks me off about trials vids at the moment is slow-mo sidehops.

Edited August 11, 2008 by ding_dong

[Mark W]

Word. In that trials vid someone posted on the first page, there was one sidehop you saw from 4 different angles, and you saw almost all the sidehops from the same 2 types of angles (Fisheye, from the side and back a bit, then fisheyed from the top of it so you can RateMyTuck.com). Adding 4 more angles of it doesn't make it 4" higher.

[JonMack]

Best thread on here in months.

I don't have a lot to say, other than I like watching BMX videos more than trials videos, however Rowans latest vid has some awesome shots in, specifically the line at lil lloyds at 0:43, the way the camera rolls forward then Ro comes in makes it look so much nicer than static cameraman just moving his upper body. Grab a bmx, or a bike with a seat, get 18" of alu strip and a bike grip, make a DIY handle for your camera, screw it into the tripod mount and start getting some rolling footage. It just looks so much smoother.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Skaters-Camera-Handel/

Even added a light for night filming, although they can't spell handle.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Skaters-Camera-Handle/

Overbuilt, but nice.

An hour in the garage with a few tools and you could knock one up and videos would look so much nicer.

Edited August 11, 2008 by Mark King

[Matthew_Gibson]

on the handles, I have a flash mount on the top of my cam. I think theres a shoe that I can buy, thats a handle and controls on the top. such as zoom rec. etc etc etc probably because about $250

[Davetrials]

Maybe trials just isnt as interesting to watch as bmx?

[Ollie Histon]

i've never undestood why you need a big handle atatched to the camera when you could just hold the camera? does it cause less shake or something?

[manuel]

i've never undestood why you need a big handle atatched to the camera when you could just hold the camera? does it cause less shake or something?

yes if you hold it loosely... works as a very simple steadycam using the cameras weight. It also just makes it easier to follow the action when moving about .

[JonMack]

The hand position and body movement is a lot more fluid too, rather than holding it with your palm against the side, you can hold the handle, meaning you can get nicer angles and it's a lot more comfortable.