"the Trials Video"

[Ollie Histon]

Nowadays trials is growing more rapidly than ever and so are the amount of companies, however pretty much all (let me know if theres any exceptions) leave the the making of trials videos to their own riders.

This quite often results in videos, which have been poorly shot, using unimaginative angles, movement and ideas, because the people making them are experts in riding, not media production.

Seeing as an internet trials video is a company's most important advertising tool, i don't see why they don't invest in a professionally made video, the results would be so much better. Heres an example from the bmx world of the kind of thing i'm talking about...

http://www.vimeo.com/810647

(this may have been made by a rider for free, i dont know, but imagine a trials video made that well)

I mean obviously they are difficulties in this idea, such as Deng being based in china, and many of his riders in England, but you get my idea.

Theres no need to shout at me and tell me i'm wrong, because some of my points probably are wrong, but it's just something i was thinking about so give your opinion kids.

thanks

Edited August 11, 2008 by chunky

[Mark W]

Theres no need to argue my points, some are probably wrong, but it's just something i was thinking about so give your opinion kids.

thanks

Contradiction?

That video was made as a sort of promo for Mutiny, it was all filmed by Joe Simon (One of the dudes who co-owns Mutiny) in HD. As another example of a similar-ish video that was filmed purely by some randomer, click here and check out that guy's vids. Webvid5 is the latest, there's out-takes from that one too.

I genuinely can't see trials videos getting to the standard of BMX videos for quite a while. The only main example I can think of of someone who's gotten close recently is Rowan, and that's pretty much it. People still seem to be finding it hard to get out of the habit of black and white intros that flash in time with a drum-beat for a metal or hardcore song. I generally get about 5-10secs into most videos simply because no-one's actually doing anything new now at all...

EDIT: Oh, and everyone needs to download this, right the f**k now.

[Ollie Histon]

hah yeah i realised that contradiction after reading it and edited, but you read my post too god damn quick! in fact i think it's still a contradiction now its edited?

[Mark W]

Oh, and from seeing trials companies around at the moment, none of them have a clue about good graphic design, good video editing, etc., so it's pretty much a case of the blind leading the blind. Equally, sponsorship seems to be about getting the most out of a rider from the sponsor's point of view, so if you can get them to edit a video for free too, then that's one more thing.

[ben_travis]

I have the feeling much of your questions might be answered when rowly (ben rowlands) begins to make the trailers for his DVD he will be making. (if he makes trailers)

That boy has ideas .

I understand what you mean, however in the same respect you have to compare the size of the bmx market to that of the trials industry. In my opinion its much much bigger, and as such the money put into promo's is much larger than that of the trials industry.

I think what OBM said is quite spot on though....that video is shot in HDV, the quality is better, which immediately makes the video 'look' 100x better than youtube video's. When trials riders start using HDV this is when trials video might appear more professional

Edited August 11, 2008 by ben_travis

[JonMack]

EDIT: Oh, and everyone needs to download this, right the f**k now.

Seen that before, and yeah, it's f**king sick.

[AdamR28]

i don't see why they don't invest in a professionally made video

Money. Trials simply can't afford to spend £1k, £2k (? I have no idea how much really, but given the amount 'pros' charge for just editing a few photos it's gotta be high) or more to get a 'pro' video made.

I think there's a few things that make all these BMX videos seem much better too:

- Expensive camera (wide screen HD with focal depth adjustment etc - Ok, you have to know how to use it, but it just makes the video look more pro instantly. Think bog standard digital camera Vs DSLR... which comes back to money again).

- Rolling moves - always more interesting to watch... but even if these are filmed nicely with a 'standard' camera, the detail and interest is lost.

- And a personal one: time. I would be more than up for investing in a posh camera and a new PC just to edit some decent videos, but I simply don't have the time to get to rides, rip footage and edit it. However, I assume all trials businesses are like this... which again comes back to money, if you can afford to pay someone to do it then you can't afford to do it yourself either.

Edit: Just realised none of that makes much sense oops.

[Mark W]

I have the feeling much of your questions might be answered when rowly (ben rowlands) begins to make the trailers for his DVD he will be making. (if he makes trailers)

That boy has ideas .

I understand what you mean, however in the same respect you have to compare the size of the bmx market to that of the trials industry. In my opinion its much much bigger, and as such the money put into promo's is much larger than that of the trials industry.

I think what OBM said is quite spot on though....that video is shot in HDV, the quality is better, which immediately makes the video 'look' 100x better than youtube video's. When trials riders start using HDV this is when trials video might appear more professional

It's not the quality that makes it look better though. That Mike Mastroni vid I posted was shot on a non-HD cam, and it's still light years ahead of trials stuff. Music choice, editing skills, filming technique (e.g. being able to pan, not just putting a fisheye on and hoping for the best, etc.) and stuff like that is important, and no-one seems to have a clue about it in trials. No-one composes shots properly, and everyone still seems to add about 3-4 different angles of the same trick. Bearing in mind that 'same trick' is generally sidehop after sidehop, it gets well old, well quickly.

[AdamR28]

That Mike Mastroni vid I posted was shot on a non-HD cam

Which one's that one? Cheers.

Edit: found it now!

[ben_travis]

It's not the quality that makes it look better though. That Mike Mastroni vid I posted was shot on a non-HD cam, and it's still light years ahead of trials stuff. Music choice, editing skills, filming technique (e.g. being able to pan, not just putting a fisheye on and hoping for the best, etc.) and stuff like that is important, and no-one seems to have a clue about it in trials. No-one composes shots properly, and everyone still seems to add about 3-4 different angles of the same trick. Bearing in mind that 'same trick' is generally sidehop after sidehop, it gets well old, well quickly.

I understand that its a culmination of things that improve the videos, and as you previously mentioned, the only real person who has come close recently is Rowan (damn i hate his skills), previously, the only people who has thought some of his shots through was TRA's HDV videos, Jonny Jones' vids, and the lot from G.E.T.

I have tried, and majorly failed, however i find that without the HD element that shots do not look that great, and i certainly dont have the money to pay for a camera man.

As tarty said, the major player in ALL of this is money. Unfortunately it DOES make the world go round.

p.s, im with you on the stuff in your quote...i think i just didnt word my post correctly before, i just think HDV is the finishing touch to making a video 'look' good.

He meant this one...click this link big man

[Mark W]

Point I was getting at though is that HD is just a superficial thing. It makes stuff look a bit nicer, but it's not going to make someone actually make a video better? Like I was saying, that Mike Mastroni guy is using a camera he paid for (That isn't HD), is filming it himself mostly, and is editing it totally by himself - aside from the obvious costs of a camera, that's not costing him anything? Being able to line up camera angles and the like for amateur filmers doesn't cost money, it just takes someone to actually stop and think about what they're doing. Even in BMX, sponsored riders still generally edit their own parts, or someone who works for the company they ride for will edit it, so it's not like BMX companies are out-sourcing all their videos either? In fact, where they have, they've generally been the biggest disappointments (e.g. Electronical, Grounded).

And this is the Mike Mastroni guy.

[ben_travis]

ok ok....trials riders are shit video editors

thats me burned down and all out of ideas to come back at you with except for one....which means im not all out of ideas eh .

but i do get where your coming from. my only other thought might be the average age of trials rider compared to a bmxer...

[Mark W]

Direct: http://www.vimeo.com/968345

Direct to the latest: http://www.vimeo.com/1354213

the average age of trials rider compared to a bmxer...

To be honest, I'm not even sure it's that. I think it's purely the lack of influences in trials videos, and external influences too? There are a lot of really good editors who do BMX videos, and BMX riders tend to watch skating DVDs and the like too, so there's a lot of tips and hints you can pick up. Equally, there's often a lot of constructive criticism available (And some general shit-talking ) when BMX riders release vids, but on here, if you give someone constructive criticism you get about 20 people who appear to be only barely literate telling you that what you're saying is wrong and that you should be glad they made the video in the first place. Because everyone just continues to wank each other off when they make shit videos, nothing's going to change, and bearing in mind everyone looks up to the same couple of people in trials, they're going to emulate their video style as well, hence everyone still essentially making old CLS videos, but with crappier riding in them.

[AdamR28]

Mark you really do seem to hate trials and all about it now, bugger off our forum

I don't really get whats so special/different about those Mike Pepperami (or whatever his name is ) videos... just seems like a nice camera (£900s worth), some sunny weather and a tune that if you used it on a trials video you would get called a fag? (Which I agree works much better than screamy shite)

[ben_travis]

Because everyone just continues to wank each other off when they make shit videos, nothing's going to change, and bearing in mind everyone looks up to the same couple of people in trials, they're going to emulate their video style as well, hence everyone still essentially making old CLS videos, but with crappier riding in them.

ah man.....i knew i was hitting the wrong spots with my videos....my fetish for wankin foils me again.

points taken dawg, to be honest i think you have crumbled my podium nicely . not a leg to stand on now haha.

Im taking OBM's side now.

[AdamR28]

on here, if you give someone constructive criticism you get about 20 people who appear to be only barely literate telling you that what you're saying is wrong and that you should be glad they made the video in the first place. Because everyone just continues to wank each other off when they make shit videos, nothing's going to change, and bearing in mind everyone looks up to the same couple of people in trials, they're going to emulate their video style as well, hence everyone still essentially making old CLS videos, but with crappier riding in them.

might be the average age of trials rider compared to a bmxer...

Exactly...

[Mark W]

I don't really get whats so special/different about those Mike Pepperami (or whatever his name is ) videos...

The angles are all thought out, the pacing of the video is all thought out, and they're just nice to watch. I go back and watch those vids every now and again, and I think the last time I did that was probably Rowan's video "Jump".

(Which I agree works much better than screamy shite)

Which is what I was saying before No-one seems to really even consider using 'different' music because it's just the norm to use screamy shite, because that's what the people who everyone looks up to uses.

There's still some good stuff about trials, it's just that it could be so much better but no-one really seems to be making the effort at the moment. C'est la vie.

[ben_travis]

Im not sure whose videos in trials you actually watch mark, but you will notice that there are a number of us that dont use screamy shite....i understand that the TGS crew (which im still nto sure if im a part of) use alot of screamy music, and im all against it, as no-one in trials has a fast enough / big enough pace to match the music.

i suppose your watching the wrong video's mark

[N.Wood]

It's not the quality that makes it look better though. That Mike Mastroni vid I posted was shot on a non-HD cam, and it's still light years ahead of trials stuff. Music choice, editing skills, filming technique (e.g. being able to pan, not just putting a fisheye on and hoping for the best, etc.) and stuff like that is important, and no-one seems to have a clue about it in trials. No-one composes shots properly, and everyone still seems to add about 3-4 different angles of the same trick. Bearing in mind that 'same trick' is generally sidehop after sidehop, it gets well old, well quickly.

I agree with most of what you're saying, and totally agree that even mediocre bmx vids are way better than 90% of trials vids.

However, there are a select few UK riders/editors (Jonny Jones, Rowly, Nick Goddard) who do compose shots properly, don't edit to 'bloodlust killer 3000' (or whatever cool bands are called these days) etc.

Kevin Shiramizu was making bmx-quality trials vids years ago, as was Andrew Tonkery.

The videos do exist, but its a small proportion of the total videos around today.

[Mark W]

If it's not screamy shit, it's generally cliche shit that people sometimes just can't pull off. Going back to Rowan, he's used stuff like "Jump" and that Queen song in his vids, and it works because they're edited to them. If you 'edit' (Loose term, from some stuff I've seen) your vids in the style of a screamy shit video but with non-screamy shit, it just doesn't work. Similarly, people still insist on doing multiple angles of everything. I barely watch videos at the moment simply because so many of them are that bad.

Yeah, I forgot to mention the GET stuff, that's always pretty dece. That's still 3-4 people out of loooooooooooads though. I just wish people, when they see a good video, would think "Why is that a good video?" then use those ideas with their own footage to try and do something a bit different to typical trials videos...

[walker]

Just got a couple of points to make...

Bit off topic, but in that first video in the thread (which is really impressive) not a single rider ever wears a helmet. I just see that as a bad influence, or if they were wearing helmets would that damage the company's image?

Back on topic, i totally agree with OBM's comments regarding the majority of trials videos posted on this forum being poorly edited and just using fisheyes and unimaginative riding. Where's this going to lead next?

By the way, thanks for bringing this topic to light now, i've just finished my new video and im full of confidence in it ...not!

Andrew

[ben_travis]

mark, look.....will you just say...."dont worry ben, your videos are amazing" and ill leave the topic alone. haha

but seriously, i agree with so many points, however i think it does come down to the style of trials. Even rowans video's are very stop start in comparison to bmx. You can have flowing shots with bmx because generally the riders are going at speed (i know im heading for a shooting down on that comment), in comparison to trials.

Music choice by most people on here is poor. I personally like to go for cheesy music, that makes you laugh at me, however, as many people will say - its each to their own.

Many riders do not think about the shot, and go with stupid angles where you cannot see the true size of a gap / sidehop, many (i think) in an aim to make something look bigger / further. I prefer when you can see the size / technicality of a move, and I try and think about where a shot will look best from, and how it will look on the camera (with the architecture of buildings, or the nature - flowers / trees / rocks and the like) but sometimes your actual location is not good enough to get a decent shot.

I watched all the bmx videos in this topic, and to be honest at times i got bored, because there was too much 'pish' - not riding, shots of buildings, sunsets etc. In the middle of a video I do not think this is good, the intro to that 8 min video was almost 2 mins, which to me, is pointless. Im wanting to see a video for the riding. Nothing more.....

just my thoughts.

[Steve-A]

There are quite a few different aspects of videos being discussed here as one, which in all honesty they aren't

One thing that bugs me about trials videos/the forum, is the constant use of the word 'editing' to describe every aspect of video production besides the performance of the rider. Editing is a very distinct part of making a video, but it is only a link in the chain. Anyway back to that later.

First things first: Making videos, good or bad, takes time and effort. And thats not just time spent filming riders, neither is it just time spent by a computer screen in post production. Time needs to be spent on concept, and direction. Most of the best videos, trials or bmx or otherwise, have a good backbone of direction. Some tell a story of a great ride, some tell the story of a riders progression and dedication while show casing their best moves, some just aim to convey the joy of riding a bike. The linking factor is that they all have a direction. Now to make a greta video this cant just be thought of when you come home with a pile of clips, its gotta be know before you start the video. i.e. If your videos all about a joy of riding your going to worry more about catching that nice sunset, and the riders all enjoying them selves, where as if its mostly about show casing a rider you'll worry more about making sure the scale of the moves are captured. Here lies a big difference between most trials videos and BMX, most BMX videos I've seen have allways had a fun enjoyable element. About riders, about lifestyle, and aimed to be pleasing to sit down of an evening and enjoy as a piece of entertainment. Lots of trials videos are purley about showcasing the abilities of a rider, and focus purely on that 50 whatever inch sidehop, not, for example, on how happy joe bloggs was to make that move. Now obviously its much more complicated than that, but you get the idea.

Now making good standard videos takes lots of time, which is why they cost lots of money. A music video for MTV etc will probably take 5 days to plan the shoot, to come up with an idea, to refine the idea. Then 2 days to film. Now when I say days I mean 8/10 hour working days, not a couple of hours a day in the pub having a chat about it. Then it will probably spend 3 days in the edit suite. This to make a 3 minute video. Then a day or so in colour when the brightness, contrast colour balance etc will be adjusted clip by clip to look as good as possible. Thats a lot of hours spent. A really cheap music video will cost about £5k. Now take cheap satellite television. To make a series they will spend upto 6 months planning, then film for 3 days per half hour episode. Then spend 7 working days on each 1/2 hour episode in edit. The cheapest budgest are down to £8/13k per half hour.

Most of the look that people describe as being so good about HDV videos comes down to the colour treatment, and depth of field. It has very little to do with the definition. Go look at a BBC wildlife documentary, or similar where cinematography is almost as important as the subject, and see its shot in standard def, and how fantastic it looks. Now its fair to say that effectivly the HDV cameras do make the videos look better, this is mostly down to the fact that the cameras have bigger lens than your standard DV cam, and so can get more light in, use larger apertures/larger sensors, meaning more DoF, and have onboard colour correction soft wear. You take a DV camera like the large Sony VX2000 that has a large diameter lens and manual aperture control etc, and you will get just as good a picture, once compressed for the internet, as out of the Sony Z1 semi pro HDV camera.

Now if people spent this much time, forget the costs, on their trials videos then they would all look much better I'm sure. But most people just don't have the time, or desire to go into it that deeply.

This is looking at it all from a professional level.

The main issue as far as I can see, is that BMX videos are shot to entertain, and often with a view to look pretty too. Most trials videos are shot to show off the riders latest moves. People just pick up a camcorder and a ride and film their friends. If you film on a grey morning its never going to look as nice as on a lovely summers evening, but will you make that line again on that summers evening? thats your call to make.

If you stop and think before you film, the results will speak for them selves.

As others have said I think constructive criticism is very important. Look at the photography thread. You you read it from start to end you can see the progression of people as photographers. This is mostly down to people saying 'thats nice ,but try this' not ' you suck', or 'wow excellent' at something mediocre. For example I had a long discussion with Ben Rowlands about his latest Porter vid when it was posted, good and bad points were raised, and I think we both went away having a little something else to think about next time either of us make a bike video.

I think I've missed half the point I was going to make in this OBM style essay but I hope people understand what I'm getting at.

[Mark W]

I watched all the bmx videos in this topic, and to be honest at times i got bored, because there was too much 'pish' - not riding, shots of buildings, sunsets etc. In the middle of a video I do not think this is good, the intro to that 8 min video was almost 2 mins, which to me, is pointless. Im wanting to see a video for the riding. Nothing more.....

Yeah, that's a fair point, and I wasn't saying "DO WHAT MIKE MASTRONI DOES, RIGHT NOW", it was more that that was the first thing I thought of when trying to show someone putting the time and effort in to think about angles, etc.

Now if people spent this much time, forget the costs, on their trials videos then they would all look much better I'm sure. But most people just don't have the time, or desire to go into it that deeply.

I get what you're saying 100%, but at the same time, if you've got your camera out, and you're about to film a line, it'd take 10-15secs longer to think about different angles and the like? Once you've started getting into the habit of doing that it'll come down and down 'til you just instinctively think what the best angle would be. If you're out there doing it, you might as well try and do it better than settling for 'good enough'? Same with editing - if you're putting that time and effort in, small little touches make a big difference, so it seems a bit pointless to not put that bit more effort in.

[Steve-A]

I watched all the bmx videos in this topic, and to be honest at times i got bored, because there was too much 'pish' - not riding, shots of buildings, sunsets etc. In the middle of a video I do not think this is good, the intro to that 8 min video was almost 2 mins, which to me, is pointless. Im wanting to see a video for the riding. Nothing more.....

Its getting that balance correct which is all important. Too much 'pish' as you put it , is dull and slow to watch, too little and there's no atmosphere. Most people make trials videos as you desire, just clips of riding, and it on whole just doesn't work. There's no sense of attachment to the video, nothing that makes it memorable, or enjoyable. A video like that is just to go wow at the riders, and might aswell be a single move, just the single best move out of the video.

Watch a film. There's a lot of 'pish', its what mostly defines the tone of the film. Now when you hit a big action scene, theres just pure action, but that will probably last for less than a minute before soem sort of break, to once again to define the tone of the scene. Maybe its a fight scene, and they just stop and look at each other, and think. Clsoe up of the eyes, normally a wide showing how much destruction has been caused during the first part of the fight. These are the shots that make the film, not the person hitting the other with a big stick!

I totally agree with you mark. I spose the point I was trying to make is that most people could make a brilliant piece of entertaining trials video, if they took the time to practice and think. But for many this isn't up the list of priorities, the moves are what matters. As as Ben says in the bit I quoted, lots of people in trials just think they want to see move after move. With little care for the cinematography.

Now making the little differences will make the change, and I suggest everyone that makes videos make those changes, but for many thats not important.

Personally, BMX videos get a bit samey. The current trend in extreme sports videos, of any kind, is to push that nice summers day feel. Pretty golden sun shots. Lots of white diffusion and a warm hue. As a photographer you'll realise there are plenty of other ways to make a picture (or moving pictures) look pretty.