Comp Format Discussion

[NSE]

Ok – before someone thinks I’m having a dig, that’s not my agenda. I feel now is the time for some genuine discussion and consideration about the format of BIU competitions.

Ever since I first heard of the rule changes amalgamating wheel sizes I have been worried at the effect it would have on all aspects of organising a competition.

Before commenting I would urge readers to study the Kelly farm results.

I don’t want to thread my thoughts into a lengthy essay, (for me Sunday raised so many questions), so here are some points for discussion, a bit random and thrown together.

- The format used on Sunday was designed for World events where an Elite rider is either a 20” Elite or from the old Master class. That’s not the case here. World Elite, Masters and Seniors and Experts have been lumped together using a selection process born out of the old rules.

- Should almost half the entry be riding the Yellow route?

- Should riders compete in their true World classification?

- Are we witnessing the death of the mod for Yellow route riders?

- Can 20 and 26” compete on equal terms over identical sections?

- Is it possible to favour 20” bike by choice of terrain?

- Should the classes be split again?

- If the system stays the same the Yellow route will grow year on year.

I am sure there are other points for consideration, others can bring those up.

Edited April 29, 2008 by NSE

[Will Arnold]

i've recently been thinking that the time limits are too strict...

i always though trials was about negotiating obstacles, not boshing over rocks to get to the end in time!

well, either that or im waaaay to unfit!

[walker]

There are some tricky questions to answer in there that could be very debatable. Looking at the results for the yellow route, the majority of the riders are 26" and the 20" are towards the bottom of the table. This can't simply be explained. The general feeling seems to be that 26" is a progression from 20", so with age and experience a rider will move to 26". The fact that there are fewer 20" dominating world riders must have an affect on this. I used to see Benito as being the rider who you'd bet most on to get up something, but the overall standard of 26" riding has increased dramatically over the past 5 years or so.

When it comes to setting sections, the answer must surely be yes, a section can be set more favorably for a particular wheel size. You could possibly say that a particular venue is more favourable for a particular size. If you allow run ups to an obstical then you're favouring a 26", especially if its a short run up. At the end of the day, if the class is combined, then the rider is going to ride whatever is easier, and at the moment this is surely the 26". Its not really a nice thought (some might disagree!), but maybe one day there will only be beginners and young riders on 20" bikes.

Andrew

Edited April 29, 2008 by walker

[F-Stop Junkie]

Is it possible to design a section that favours one bike or the other? Absolutely. It's therefore essential that the sections either favour neither, or they balance so that 20" are favoured on some, 26" on others. Of course, people will always bitch that it's not in their favour, that the other bike would have been easier, but that's life.

The bigger problem is that it isn't one person who lays out all competitions. I can imagine, especially at an international level, where a section layerouterer has more experience of one wheel size than the other, and unconciously puts a bias in.

I think there's also a problem that riding standards are so high that sections in both red and yellow are both technically and physically demanding, so the results often have a leading group, a couple of other groups around the same score, then a number of high scores.

Competitions should be a challenge, but trials in the UK cover everyone from the beginner to the fat lapsed rider to multiple world champions. Can we still say that National events should be like half a dozen world rounds?

I don't know the answer here, just some thoughts for the mix.

[NSE]

Chris, section “layerouter” – I think I can call myself that, I’ve not met anyone else that’s set out a BIU World round and a UCI World round, along with countless Nationals.

Fortunately for me 20 and 26” have been physically separated at the International events I’ve set, and separated by class at the Nationals.

Now it’s easy by accident or intent to favour 26” but very hard to give 20” any advantage.

To be honest, (with the current mix of U.K riders on Yellow), were I asked to plot a course that gave one of Sundays 20” riders a chance of a podium place I would not know where to start. Stock bikes now are mods with big wheels – given a choice of vehicle on which to cover rough terrain, who would choose the one with small wheels?

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

I think it's quite difficult to judge on that first event (which I didn't attend so can't say anything about the sections). This was the first time a UK (any?) BIU round has been run combined and so I'm sure a lot will have been learned about setting sections and maybe more consideration is required in future events.

However, I'd also say that the UK riders riding elite on 20" and 26" are not of the same standard. Now I don't mean that in a malicious way to the 20" riders- all 4(!) who rode elite on Sunday are better riders than I ever was or ever will be, but for 75% of them (I think) this was their first crack at elite and just from looking at the sections at past Nationals, the jump from red to yellow route is immense. Looking at the 26" riders, you have pretty much all of the best riders in the UK, including ex world champions. I think if (either) Ben had still been riding 20" he would still quite easily have been in the top 3 as they are fantastic riders on any sized bike, although it's impossible to say if he would still have won the event on little wheels.

I guess this whole year will end up being a bit of a 'taster', particularly for the world rounds, and the BIU will then have to decide, on feedback and instinct, whether the format is a good one or if it's destined for failure.

Also, please don't anyone be offended by my comments on rider ability, it's just an observation and I'm simply trying to get a point across.

[psycholist]

To favour mod bikes:

Since 20" bikes are shorter, a course that requires lots of turns in confined space might favour them.

A mod can be theoretically sidehopped higher thanks to the back wheel getting in the way less at the peak of the hop and them being inherently lighter. I'm guessing this isn't a big deal given how high 26" bikes can be sidehopped - most people are tucking to the side of the back wheel to make the room anyway.

Climbs with lots of short steps on them should be easier on a mod as there's more space for the back wheel to stand and roll - provided the line can't be ridden as sidehops. Think of trying to pedal kick forwards up a flight of stairs on a mod vs. a 26" bike - as the flat part of each step gets shorter the 26" tyre starts touching the edge of the next step, eliminating runup for the next hop and throwing balance off, before the same happens on a mod.

In marginal stuff the skid plate on a mod bike is a more stable/pleasant place to touch down than the cranks/bashguard on a 26" bike. I wouldn't like to see loads of bashguard based stuff being required though it's nearly becoming a lost art some people are so clean through things - half point for bashguard only dabs might leave it as an incentive to not put feet down instead...

Sections where you can't really roll or take a runup to anything and so have to hop all the time will lend themselves to the lightest bike, which should be a mod...

Are trials courses being designed with more flow in mind (Looks better to onlookers) these days compared to a decade ago? Is this change the reason 20" mods are not offering any advantage?

I'll be interested to see how the season works out though - first event isn't enough to make an objective judgement anyway...

[NSE]

I think it's quite difficult to judge on that first event (which I didn't attend so can't say anything about the sections). This was the first time a UK (any?) BIU round has been run combined and so I'm sure a lot will have been learned about setting sections and maybe more consideration is required in future events.

Dave, the 20 and 26” sections have been combined for years – the Yellow route, except 20 rode against 20 and 26 against 26. Look at last years results or further back if you wish, the model is there.

Edited April 29, 2008 by NSE

[Gavyn.]

maybe it's worth at least giving the new format a year trial. Then everyone can analyze the results and we can accurately answer some of those questions.

if it was up to me i would have kept them split. It made the competition more fair and I would say watching a trial more interesting.

[bonzojim]

i think that its a silly idea combining the two wheel sizes in the same catergory, because at the end of an event in my opinion the results might not bring out the best riders at the top it might just show you which wheel sizes were best suited to the sections on that day which in a lot of cases is 26" bikes, For example although i really enjoyed the trial at kelly farm and was the highest placed 20" rider i feel that ive missed out on 20 points towards a 20" elite British Championship round like their was in previous years.

I really enjoy riding 20" trials but i really feel their should be two classes rather than one!

Cheers james...

[rugbyman]

surely the best thing to do is to turn up to the trial with a 20" & 26" bike, look at the sections then ride the bike that suits them the most, also is it possible to use both bikes in different sections?

[walker]

but that would suit riders who can afford to own two bikes...

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

Dave, the 20 and 26” sections have been combined for years – the Yellow route, except 20 rode against 20 and 26 against 26. Look at last years results or further back if you wish, the model is there.

Hey Fred, I realise the courses have been the same but this is the first time that the seperate size classes have effectively been competing with each other which will alter the 'dynamic' slightly and also how the sections need to be set out, if you want them to be 'equal'. I get your point though

I guess part of it, in the UK at least, is that 20" riders tend to 'progress' onto 26", and 20" bikes are seen more as a 'silly little kids bike'. That attitude doesn't seem to be quite the same as in the rest of the world where the bikes are considered different but approximately equal. As has also been mentioned, stock bikes are also becoming more and more like big wheeled mods and can now be built almost as lightweight as a 20". It is probably therefore the case that in many circumstances a 26" will have more advantages than 20"...

[Muel]

I think its a bit daft really. YMSA have got the right idea, sack the age rule completely. What has age got to do with ability in trials? I agree that in athletic events or at world level, if you 14 and really good, then it's a disadvantage being against people with more experience and power in them.

I think that the age rule is daft, and that bike sizes should be mixed together.

[NSE]

Hey Fred, I realise the courses have been the same but this is the first time that the seperate size classes have effectively been competing with each other which will alter the 'dynamic' slightly and also how the sections need to be set out, if you want them to be 'equal'. I get your point though

I guess part of it, in the UK at least, is that 20" riders tend to 'progress' onto 26", and 20" bikes are seen more as a 'silly little kids bike'. That attitude doesn't seem to be quite the same as in the rest of the world where the bikes are considered different but approximately equal. As has also been mentioned, stock bikes are also becoming more and more like big wheeled mods and can now be built almost as lightweight as a 20". It is probably therefore the case that in many circumstances a 26" will have more advantages than 20"...

That view does exist, but it is certainly not my view. I have the greatest respect for 20” riders, curiously the BIU has always held them in higher regard than 26’ers, hence the "can go" from Elite to Master but not the other way rule.

I find it strange that the BIU have made it so difficult for 20” icons to maintain their reputation at World level. If you add up the advantages and disadvantages of one type of bike over the other at any given event I am convinced the 26” would come out on top. That is why I said in my opening post – is this the death of the mod.

I agree with the post that said two classes made events more entertaining to watch.

[manuel]

If you add up the advantages and disadvantages of one type of bike over the other at any given event I am convinced the 26" would come out on top. That is why I said in my opening post – is this the death of the mod.

almost it would seem - Its pushing the mod down to a junior bike almost... where it is an advantage to have a generally smaller machine ... seems odd to me that theBIU would go that way but then I am quietly happy about that as id like to see trials as a mountainbike sport. Like Dave said 26"er can almost be built as light - they are more advantagous in most sections. So why not - bin the mods all together ? ha

all that aside - it is pretty silly to have 26 and 20 in the same catagory. I dont really see the need ? makes no real difference to the running of a comp if both run the same section but compete against the same bike class ...

[N Roach]

My Opinion: I was unaware of these rules until I rode Sunday at Kelly Farm. I feel that 26" and 20" are two very different types of riding although they consist of the same moves. Both the 26" bike and the 20" bike have their advantages and disadvantages, which I feel is unfair and does NOT single out the winner in a true manor. I think that there should be a class for 26" and class for 20" so that the skills needed for each sizes of wheel are preformed through each category.

On Sunday I feel abit disapointed that I had travelled quite a long way to compete against 20" riders, although I was 1/2 riders that was on 26". The way I see it is: At a motor cross meeting, you would not see all the riders of the same age on different "cc engines". Like 11 year olds having the choice to ride an 65cc and an 85cc in the same category.

Edited April 29, 2008 by Koxx_Nath.C

[robster]

Will it effect the way that younger riders come through the ranks,? to me that is the million doller question

look at Sam Oliver awesome 20" rider but no way ready for a 26" bike, so he gets left behind and forgotten about maybee,

You have many riders who fall into this seam I think, look at the Donnerlys(sp) James sherriden, chris Walker, chris Boyes ect and then even further down the line in years to come Jack Carthy, Tom Oliver our Rob will the sport even go on for 20".

My thoughts are that it is bike manufacturers that will play a big part in all of this, it is far easier to sell a "mountain bike" (said in the loosest terms) than a 20" (bmx without a seat) and just maybee they can/do influence the big cheeses at BIU with money and promisses, who knows.

Look at media ie MBUK, Extreme channel, all of the demo riders out there all seem to be about 26" bikes the man in the street can relate to this type of bike I guess.

It is a shame but will it ever go full circle I wonder?

Just my thought for the day.

[basher]

surely the best thing to do is to turn up to the trial with a 20" & 26" bike, look at the sections then ride the bike that suits them the most, also is it possible to use both bikes in different sections?

Its not really possible to do that and be the best you can. To train on both sizes and then switch between is very hard and it may take you the whole trial to just get ust to the bike especially if you favour the other and ride that more frequently.

I also think they should stay split and by grouping them together it is totally unfair as it is really pushing mod out of the comp scene. And it should be you ride what you feel best on and enjoy most not which you have to to do best.

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

bike manufacturers just maybee can/do influence the big cheeses at BIU with money and promisses, who knows.

I always thought the BIU and Monty were pretty much interchangeable anyway... aren't they?

[The sponsor]

I feel pretty strong about all these changes going on in the BIU comp seen

Firstly,

This year we have had the change of ripping out the Cadet route & putting in a junior

route, to me this is unfair as my son had a fair chance at the worlds this year which would

have been his last year in Cadet as each category is based on D.O.B.

The new junior category puts him with riders up to 18yrs old, he is just 15.

Secondly,

In the UK he has been seeded to Elite & is by far the youngest rider on this route,

I don't have a problem with the seeding as he should have been & can hold his own

on this route, but when you mix small & big wheels I dont think you have found a true

winner. This was the main reason we didn't make the 4hr trip to Devon.

Could maybe push us to 26" wheels a lot quicker!!!!!!!!

[Revolver]

if the wheel sizes are getting lumped together, that means 24" can be used, surely?

[NSE]

if the wheel sizes are getting lumped together, that means 24" can be used, surely?

It does, but please look into the rules before commenting.

MAIN REPLY.

Some have suggested that this year should be used as an experiment – can’t agree with that as those it effects will potentially be spending large sums of money to act as guinea pigs and ride in events using a format they don’t agree with. Other Nations are applying the rules, I wager their riders won’t be happy with the system either and it will change back, so why spoil a year in the U.K.

Riders like James Sheridan, Sam Oliver etc will not feel as bad off at the Worlds as they won’t be matched against Elites, but will still have the disadvantage of riding against 26”.

The Biu U.K. committee claim to be a democratic body, maybe they should listen to their electorate and put in place an acceptable regime.

For example;

If almost 50% of the entire entry must be lumped into the Yellow route, give points and trophies for both 20 and 26”.

If you’re worried about the fact that the series has already started then change to make three out of four count, the fact that the 1st round has passed means that this should not impact on your final round.

What is there to loose? Either the price of a few inexpensive trophies, or the attendance of a number of dedicated young riders that are the future of the sport.

Fred.

[ben_travis]

Unfortunately for me i ride for the challenge.

I do not ride to compete against others, i do not ride to win, if i ride a comp i see it as a chance to see if i can make a good effort at challenging the terrain you are asked to ride over.

Thus, i do not really have much opinion whether i ride against 20 or 26 inch riders. It is a riders choice as to why he / she rides a 20 or a 26.

However, i can see all the annoyance this is causing those who compete regularly and as such, maybe as u suggest fred, why spoil a years competition in the UK if the riders riding the competition are not happy. after all the comp is alllll about them.

I think that some of the parents are being a tad, erm....over protective. I do not mean any major offence at that however my reasons for this are below

• Your child will have to enter a category above sometime anyway so it might as well happen earlier (in my opinion) if they are capable enough
• I understand they wont be winning their categories, but the challenge of being able to should spur them on
• I do not believe that 26 always favours a competition, they should be riding for the fun anyway
• hmmm maybe im being a little in-sensitive, but its just an opinion

Maybe you should not have the two sizes competing against each other as it seems to be causing alot of offence.

[Muel]

I think I actually prefer having seperate Mod and Stock classes, on certain sections you could ride them better on a stock, some better on a Mod.

But am I right in thinking that the age rule means that if your 17 like me, you have to ride a certain route or above?