Transition Time. Mod To Stock...

[Sponge]

Good afternoon all, yep, this does seem a very generic and constantly reoccuring topic, but I've searched, and I still think a new topic'd give me the most useful info.

Here goes,

basically, I've ridden a mod for a while, I ride unicycle trials too and have had BMXs in the past, so 20" wheels have been my main focus in my riding lifetime. I've never ever ever owned a bike with bigger wheels, and therefore have minimal experience or knowledge of how to work with vertical dropouts, even though some say I'm a mechanical master with the bikes/unis i own.

But importantly, I've been fighting myself on what to get, if i were to move to stock? I have very few options, and I choose it to be this way, but let me know?

Low BB: Coustellier St.Blaise V2 (not the Koxx model, the actual Coust) (1080mm, +10mm)

High BB: Adamant A1 long 2006 (1095mm, +55mm), Echo Hifi 2006 (1085mm, +55mm)

^those four are the only ones I'd realistically want to get, heavily based on aesthetics as well. the Coust is the only low BB stock I'd want to get if I got one because I am a fan of classic things. Advising me to get a Control or some other low BB bike isn't really going to help.

I like high BB very much since when i've ridden them, they feel just like a big mod. I'm not into rolling-type moves, and am very centralised around wanting comfort on the backwheel, and love sidehops and flat gaps to backwheel. Those are my main concerns in trials, other moves are important but all those three have to feel as excellent as possible if I want to enjoy the ride.

I hear that Cousts and low BB bikes generally don't sidehop as comfortably as high BB stocks do, yet they are better for taps and bunnies? True or false? I know there's the whole thing with getting used to the bike, but at the end of the day, no matter how much you get used to something, its geometry will have serious influence that you can't change. So I want to get it right, now. Many people here seem to hate high BB stocks, ok fair enough, but I'm someone who has loved them in the past and would very much like one. But at the same time, I'm thinking of the St.Blaise even though it's low BB.

Whenever I've tried low BB stocks, the front end always seems to want to dip down and it seems a fight to stay on the backwheel. Even when I get completely used to it, I fear that still, it might feel a bit like a fight. How are you finding it? Do remember the St.Blaise is +10mm... so it is fairly damn low.

So what do you think? Saint Blaise is so damn tempting. mmm

Edited April 26, 2008 by Sponge

[Andrew Smith]

06 zoo pitbull long they ride so nice

[manuel]

06 zoo pitbull long they ride so nice

Did you even read the first post ?

anyway - out of the three (?) I read of the coust would be my choice - I think the hifi and the old adamants were generally shite to ride.

[Andrew Smith]

Did you even read the first post ?

anyway - out of the three (?) I read of the coust would be my choice - I think the hifi and the old adamants were generally shite to ride.

yes i did read the post first lol but i am just saying that my own choice would be to get a high bb 06 long pitbull because i used to ride a 06 long python a then went on to a 06 long pitbull and it was soo much more comfortible to ride and i had a go on my freinds coust and it felt horrid compaired to the pitbull to ride

[Krisboats]

Did you even read the first post ?

anyway - out of the three (?) I read of the coust would be my choice - I think the hifi and the old adamants were generally shite to ride.

Very much agreed, The old adamants were very lifeless and the 06 pitbull is one of the worst frames ive ever ridden, slightly oput-worsened by the Hi-fi... which usually feels like your trying to ride a bike with the bars mounted through the bb shell because its so short.

[Jason222]

I personally wouldn't choose any of those frames. I'm not a fan of low bb, or high bb! The sweet spot in somewhere in between. Go for something like +30 to +40 Oh, and nothing with stays shorter than 380...lol

Edited April 26, 2008 by Jason222

[Sponge]

Interesting, so how do you long-term low Bb and long-term high BB users think of your bikes and the way they handle? The only thing putting me off low BB is the fact that backwheel control might be a bit more of a struggle and that sidehops feel worse.

[Bionic Balls]

go inbetween....? both of those bikes are pretty much the extremes...!

recommend something like a zhi- 1080, 380 +30

bit of everything geo..

[Alex.loves.boys]

echo pure?

in between

but use a booster

or they crack

or a zenith?

[Sponge]

I strictly want to be at extremes.

but yeah, can someone please go in depth with pros and cons of low and high BB for specific moves? i.e. flat gaps to backwheel, to front wheel, taps to rear and taps to front, sidehops, backwheel control, bunnyhops, general two-wheel comfort. etc..?

Thanks

[Matt Burrows]

If I was to get a high BB frame I'd get a Gu Typhoon. I really didn't expect to like them, but after trying a friends bike I was surprised how well it handles when set up properly. I've heard nothing but bad things about old high BB Adamants and Hi-Fis so I would avoid those. I am very tempted to try a Typhoon, especially as the 07 model is going for about £230 on Tarty.

[Sponge]

If I was to get a high BB frame I'd get a Gu Typhoon. I really didn't expect to like them, but after trying a friends bike I was surprised how well it handles when set up properly. I've heard nothing but bad things about old high BB Adamants and Hi-Fis so I would avoid those. I am very tempted to try a Typhoon, especially as the 07 model is going for about £230 on Tarty.

going, going, gone!

Yep, i decided to order that myself just now .

Edited April 26, 2008 by Sponge

[Rusevelt]

Low bb frames are easier to learn and adapt, where as high bb requires alot more use of the pedal hop techinque as opposed to where you would use a bunnyhop techinque to get up anything higher than wheel height. riding a low bb stock, should feel the same as riding any current mod rig, as opposed to riding a high bb stock. manuals on a high bb stock just require changing your crank/pedal position from the standard 3'0clock (horizontal cranks/pedal position) to the 6'0clock (vertical cranks/pedals position). ultimately its down to personal choice, low bb is a "walk in the park" to learn and adapt where as high bb, requires more time and dedication to adapt before you start dialling your style and techinque.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Rusevelt

[Sponge]

that may be the case for someone who's ridden stock for years,

but I'm a mod rider, and from my experiences on peoples' bikes, I find high BB to be very similar in feel. The backwheel control requires minimal effort, and most static moves feel spot on.

Whereas low BB is far more foreign to me. Backwheel hopping feels a bit iffy, and the front end always seem to want to dip down easily, I know it takes time to adapt technique and get used to a frame, but first impressions.. always it's high BB that feels nicer at first. I just 'connect' with them.

Are there even many differences amongst high BB frames themselves? The 2006 Pitbulls, A1s, and Hifis had pretty much the same BB rise, and maybe 5mm differences in wheelbase, but that's about it? I don't get how they'd feel so damn different to other high BB or eachother? Or am I missing some important subtle point somewhere?

[Matt Burrows]

that may be the case for someone who's ridden stock for years,

but I'm a mod rider, and from my experiences on peoples' bikes, I find high BB to be very similar in feel. The backwheel control requires minimal effort, and most static moves feel spot on.

Whereas low BB is far more foreign to me. Backwheel hopping feels a bit iffy, and the front end always seem to want to dip down easily, I know it takes time to adapt technique and get used to a frame, but first impressions.. always it's high BB that feels nicer at first. I just 'connect' with them.

Are there even many differences amongst high BB frames themselves? The 2006 Pitbulls, A1s, and Hifis had pretty much the same BB rise, and maybe 5mm differences in wheelbase, but that's about it? I don't get how they'd feel so damn different to other high BB or each other? Or am I missing some important subtle point somewhere?

Yeah I think compared to how a mod rides, high BB stocks are closer when it comes to techniques etc.

And on the point of geos, I've found that numbers are often slightly different in real life. Couple that with the fact that the geometry of a bike is a lot more complex than just the commonly stated measurements, and its hard to compare frames without actually trying them. My last 2 frames sound similar on paper, but they feel completely different to ride and my riding style has changed quite a bit to suit the new bike.

Oh and good luck with the Gu, I hope you enjoy it

[Danny Kearns]

Spoken to you a few times on msn Sponge.

I've currently gone from a 2005 long Zoo! python mod. Now riding a 06 long control, really low bb and i can HONESTLY say, Low bb stock is the best thing that has ever happend to me, My riding has improved STUPIDLY. High bb is gay to be honest, apart from one frame, GU 07, them things are just unreal. But, high bb sucks, bike feels like it's on the piss.

I would say im fully used to the control now. Got EVERYTHING dialed, Sidehops perfectly now, taps are fine, wheelswaps are fine, up to fronts are fine. Everything just feels so much better and 100x more comfy.

Words can't explain how much better a low bb stock is to a high bb, fair enough, high bb sits on the backwheel better (i personally disagree), sidehops are easier, 100% agree with that, But everything else feels terriable.

I think you've made a really good move getting 07 GU, but personally, i think there's no nicer frame out there than 06 echo control long.

Just my input

[Sponge]

I hear lots of bad things about high BB frames for rolling ups (taps, bunnyhops) and flat gaps to rear and front. What's the actual detailed phyiscs behind this if anyone knows?

[Bionic Balls]

there is no detailed physics ..

just different geo and different people. Long bikes are longer, feel longer. High BB bikes are higher, feel higher..if you still want to buy an "extreme" geo bike, then do so...but don't blame the geo if certain things feel harder..!

[kid creole]

you can do every move on any frame! i don't know why you worrying so much, the bikes just a bike its the rider that makes it do stuff.

damon watson has plus 60 bb bracket and i don't see it stopping him gapping to front or tapping things.

[Simpson]

Sponge ill just give you my 2p.

I really dont think you should change to a stock, youv'e just come back from having a bad wrist and really don't need to be handling a bigger bike! Your not a massive bloke and think you do better suit a 20" like you say, riding BMX etc. You just fit a mod, i think youv'e always had the longest mods, i think you should try a shorter mod and focus more on rolling taps and stuff, long mods just make anything other than sidehops and gaps a hell of a lot harder, so think you could enjoy them more on a shorter bike? Also going to be a hell of a lot cheaper for you. Ive ridden a few short mods and there all pretty amazing, just uniquie riding if you get me, 06typhoon, 07montyTi, Adamant A3 all were great riding bikes

[Sponge]

there is quite a large chunk of physics behind how geometry affects certain motions and moves.

I'd just like to give big wheels a try, for once, as it's different, and something compeltely new to me, both mechanics-wise and ride-wise. I already ride a uni, and it just feels so similar to a mod bike in terms of flickiness, control, etc.. (to a degree). So if I want to do biketrials, I'd like to have it very different to how my uni handles. It's all trials at the end of the day, but it's better to have unity in diversity.

I'm not at all into rolling moves. Taps and bunnies aren't a biggie for me, same with rolling gaps. It's something i'll concentrate on more later, but I find static moves more enjoyable and far more practical.

A frame's a frame at the end of the day, but different frames feel different, even ever so slightly. I'm also kinda after a multi-purpose bike, something that is better than a mod for cruising around on, able to go riding in the woods with my brother, and also I'll be able to use Esher's Northshore MTB park with 26" wheels. Great cross-training for trials for those who don't know. What's crucial for me is comfort of backwheel control, and comfort for gaps and sidehops. I often ride to the shops at night with my friend just to chill, get some food and drink, so I need a casual mess-around worthy bike that requires minimal effort. I'd hate to have to ride a sluggish feeling bike that takes concentration and effort to do basic stuff.

Anyways, high BB it is. Some of you hate it, meh, ok, I like it though from past experience.

Importantly, will a 160mm front Avid BB5 be too weak for a front stock end? this is coming off my mod.

Thanks for all the input so far!

[craigjames]

the 160 avid definitely wont feel as good on the stock as it did on the mod due the larger leverage the 26" wheel has. use a 180 or a 203 rotor. if you need either let me know as i have both.

[Sponge]

Just a point of curiosity, regarding the adamant a1 2006, did any of you like the way it rode? the long one especially. Would it be worth that or a typhoon 07?

[Alex.loves.boys]

thought u order a gu?

i didnt like the adamants

[Alex Dark]

thought u order a gu?

i didnt like the adamants

yeh i thought he did as well......

I really dont like high bb stocks to be honest....anything from +10 to +30 is just peachy for me.....id just go and try some other peoples bikes out