Lights.

[Mark W]

Comfort, ease, deciding myself what I feel is the best for myself, etc. I wouldn't go out without a helmet on my trials bike, but would on a BMX. Unless it's a park where you have to wear one, obviously.

You couldn't theoretically get done for being light-less on a pavement, but the majority of fun situations I've been in with the police they'll tell you "You could get two £30 fines for doing that, and you don't want that".

Had a fun City Police chase last night, pretty epic.

[JT!]

Comfort, ease, deciding myself what I feel is the best for myself, etc. I wouldn't go out without a helmet on my trials bike, but would on a BMX.

I would have thought it'd be the other way round.

[Mark W]

Nope. When you fall off on a trials bike, if it's a mechanical, it'll generally be something light, shit and aluminium catastrophically failing, giving me 0.0 seconds to react to impending doom, meaning I'm more likely to nail myself. Equally, the way you fall on trials is different - if your chain snapped/your wheel span when you kicked for a gap, you're going from no momentum to a shitload of spinning-you-over-the-bars momentum towards the floor very quickly. On a BMX, you're generally travelling across, as you're got more momentum so you roll, rather than slap into the floor. I also trust almost every single part I run on my BMX to not break, unlike my trials bike where chain snaps, freewheel skips and fork/bar snaps rule my every thought, haha.

[TomR]

So if i was just on a shop front, like a extra wide pavement, i couldn't get done for no lights etc, but could for riding on the pavement?

No, cycling on the footpath is also an offence under the road traffic/highways act or whatever one it is. If you're outside a shop front (and not on public highway) then they can't do you for either. As for 'extra wide pavements' that depends on where it is really as to whether it would actually be a wide pavement or for exampe a 2m pavement then a load of privately owned tarmac beyond that.

Generally the local council would adopt as highway - the road, and a 1.8 or 2m footpath or verge. Anything beyond that would probably be privately owned, so a stairset, wall, parking outside or next to a shop etc is probably owned by the shop, therefore they can't prosecute you under road traffic law. Councils don't freely adopt anything in sight up to the front step of a shop, it's a- not their responsibility to maintain the areas serving shops, and b- its maintenance costs they dont want. Pedestrianised town centres are confusing though, i don't know what theyre classed as, but most have no cycling rules anyway so you cant win there.

Best to weigh it up though because if you're trashing walls and start getting cocky about traffic law then they'll whack criminal damage on you instead. Knowledge is power, especially when you can put one over on some incompetent PCSO Feel free to PM me if you want any more info.

[JT!]

Nope. When you fall off on a trials bike, if it's a mechanical, it'll generally be something light, shit and aluminium catastrophically failing, giving me 0.0 seconds to react to impending doom, meaning I'm more likely to nail myself. Equally, the way you fall on trials is different - if your chain snapped/your wheel span when you kicked for a gap, you're going from no momentum to a shitload of spinning-you-over-the-bars momentum towards the floor very quickly. On a BMX, you're generally travelling across, as you're got more momentum so you roll, rather than slap into the floor. I also trust almost every single part I run on my BMX to not break, unlike my trials bike where chain snaps, freewheel skips and fork/bar snaps rule my every thought, haha.

Makes no sence to me. We both know that you can smack your head in either type of riding, maybe your more likely to hit your head riding trials, but the risk is still there, and significantly for BMXing surely?

No, cycling on the footpath is also an offence under the road traffic/highways act or whatever one it is. If you're outside a shop front (and not on public highway) then they can't do you for either. As for 'extra wide pavements' that depends on where it is really as to whether it would actually be a wide pavement or for exampe a 2m pavement then a load of privately owned tarmac beyond that.

Generally the local council would adopt as highway - the road, and a 1.8 or 2m footpath or verge. Anything beyond that would probably be privately owned, so a stairset, wall, parking outside or next to a shop etc is probably owned by the shop, therefore they can't prosecute you under road traffic law. Councils don't freely adopt anything in sight up to the front step of a shop, it's a- not their responsibility to maintain the areas serving shops, and b- its maintenance costs they dont want. Pedestrianised town centres are confusing though, i don't know what theyre classed as, but most have no cycling rules anyway so you cant win there.

Best to weigh it up though because if you're trashing walls and start getting cocky about traffic law then they'll whack criminal damage on you instead. Knowledge is power, especially when you can put one over on some incompetent PCSO Feel free to PM me if you want any more info.

It's really interesting. I was saying to the police woman how i know can't ride this bike on the road anyway becuase it hasn't got a seat. And i'm not allowed to ride it during the day becuase it has no reflectors, so what was the point in getting lights as i can't get a seat. She said the only place i am allowed to ride it is at a privatly owned area.

Meh. It's all fun and games.

Bought some of the backupz lights anyway, best batterylife.

[Mark W]

Makes no sence to me. We both know that you can smack your head in either type of riding, maybe your more likely to hit your head riding trials, but the risk is still there, and significantly for BMXing surely?

*sigh*

We've been through this before, I can't really be bothered going over it again. Your thick skull probably means that you don't need to wear a helmet anyway

[Krisboats]

*sigh*

We've been through this before, I can't really be bothered going over it again. Your thick skull probably means that you don't need to wear a helmet anyway

Actually, it was you and me that went through it before. And i gave up because i knew i you'd set your mind that you were right.

The risk is still there though, doesn't matter what sport it is, i went with my friend to his kiteboarding thing and a lot of the people there wouldn't do it without a helmet, and those that did had the piss taken out of them. This was on sand at the beach and they weren't launching off obstacles just a small kicker. Again they had the speed thing like you mentioned before but they still wouldn't do it and I'd say from my own personal experience that bmxing is more dangerous than kiteboarding. Say you drop a stairset but you land front heavy and go over the bars, your going from speed, to no speed (the opposite of the trials scenario going from still to speed) and the first thing to hit the floor is your face/hands. A helmet would be far better than twatting your forehead on the concrete.

He rolled out of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_1zb8ebXHM, but if he hadn't... he would have hit his head even harder than he did already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7qsRyYBUiE, still hit his head with some force... the guy was clever enough to be wearing a helmet though.

And for the grand finale, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty_PL32ESQky, was hopping off a small wall, helmet'less and hit his head hard enough to mess him up quite bad.

BMX'ing is still and extreme sport and its called that because there are extreme risks. A helmet IS a good idea, and its pretty naive to try and say otherwise.

Edit: Forgot the classic.... Faceplant harsh.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Krisboats

[Mark W]

I totally removed my nose from my face (basically splashed it flat, my bridge of my nose was under my left eye socket), wearing what I believe was a Met of some kind, so yeah, even if that guy had been wearing a helmet, what difference would it have made (That was also the only time out of 10 years I've hit my head riding any form of bike)? You're an intelligent person so I doubt you were implying that a helmet would've helped, but even so, people always seem to suggest helmets stop faceplants - they don't. You still get f**ked up whatever you do. The nurses at the hospital were taking the piss out of me and having a go at me for not wearing a lid whilst I was coming out from my pethadone haze. Had I not been so amazing blissfully relaxed at the time, I'd have pointed out how wrong they were, but shit, pethadone is awesome.

Kite-boarding is totally different. I've tried it, and I'd definitely want a helmet on for it.

I hadn't "set my mind that I was right", I just can't really be bothered explaining myself over and over again for a choice I've made. There seems to be a really weird attitude on here that I can't really put my finger on, but either way, I can't really be bothered explaining stuff to people any more. Not just about this but in general, I think it's 'cos I've been out of the trials scene for a year so I'm looking at it all with fresh eyes I guess...

Either way, I'd say you were wrong about it being speed to no speed with BMX. I can't really recall it being like that that often, you're way, way more likely to have a roll out of something, or at least be able to set yourself up for a fall better. When my chain snapped kicking for a gap on my trials bike, I flipped forward and there was f**k all I could do. I got my hands out, but all my momentum meant my arms weren't going to do shit. On the other hand, the last time I went down on my BMX I knew it was coming, I had time to try and prepare myself for it, and as a result despite falling off pretty hard, it didn't hurt and I got back up and carried on riding. You don't really get that with trials unless it's with you f**king up a tap or something and you can kinda step off the back, I suppose?

With your example of dropping stairsets, I've nosed them before and I haven't (and I've never seen anyone) just stop dead and go over the bars. If you were in the situation where that was happening, you'd know about it pretty much as soon as you'd hopped. The only time where you're a little more f**ked is doing 180s or twists, but in either case again you get a feeling for it just because you have more time, and you really can feel it go tits up from the get-go. Same with that guy trying to gap over that fence - you can see from the take-off he doesn't seem to be riding as though he thinks he's made it, and ends up dead-sailoring it, which is probably why he got his hands out like that. With trials stuff, you don't really get that. Say he'd been going for that as a gap to backwheel onto the rail - if the backwheel was slightly too high, it'd feel normal-ish 'til he tried to land, then it'd just fly out from underneath him and he'd be racking himself across it.

With that guy doing a shocking attempt at a feeble to bars (Liked the "Attention Kids! wear your helmets! to avoid that kind of things they were maked =D" comment...), that was more of a one-off thing. I also don't grind, or do barspins, whips or shit like that, so I'm also generally more in control of it all, which is again why I choose not to wear a helmet. Yes, I know I can still fall off and twat my head, but from weighing up how much I trust my bike and how I ride and the way I ride, I've made my own decision from it.

But yeah, lights. Backupz = ideal. I lost my last set, and I wore the set out before them. They'll probably last you through 'til spring/summer easily enough which is realistically all you need them for 'til next autumn/winter.

[JT!]

I totally removed my nose from my face (basically splashed it flat, my bridge of my nose was under my left eye socket), wearing what I believe was a Met of some kind, so yeah, even if that guy had been wearing a helmet, what difference would it have made (That was also the only time out of 10 years I've hit my head riding any form of bike)? You're an intelligent person so I doubt you were implying that a helmet would've helped, but even so, people always seem to suggest helmets stop faceplants - they don't.

Looks like it would have made a big difference to me. After pausing the vid, and considering how much a helmet sticks out.

Wouldn't have kept him 100% safe, but could have reduced his injurys a lot.

[Krisboats]

Firstly, i'm gonna jump in and say that none of this is meant offensively or argumentatively and i'm not trying to have a personal dig at you, your opinion is your opinion and i respect that, i'm just trying to understand why you don't think bmx'ing is risky enough to wear a lid. I enjoy a somewhat lengthy conversation with someone else who obviously is quite intelligent.

I totally removed my nose from my face (basically splashed it flat, my bridge of my nose was under my left eye socket), wearing what I believe was a Met of some kind, so yeah, even if that guy had been wearing a helmet, what difference would it have made (That was also the only time out of 10 years I've hit my head riding any form of bike)? You're an intelligent person so I doubt you were implying that a helmet would've helped, but even so, people always seem to suggest helmets stop faceplants - they don't.

No, not that it'll stop a faceplant... more along the lines of if the faceplant is possible, its not within the realms of impossibility to flip just the slight bit further and twat your skull on the floor instead of your nose/mouth.

I hadn't "set my mind that I was right", I just can't really be bothered explaining myself over and over again for a choice I've made. There seems to be a really weird attitude on here that I can't really put my finger on, but either way, I can't really be bothered explaining stuff to people any more. Not just about this but in general, I think it's 'cos I've been out of the trials scene for a year so I'm looking at it all with fresh eyes I guess...

Thats defiantely the way it seemed/seems, you always (in the last thread as well) seem to be saying that in bmx'ing you'll always roll out of stuff and you'll never hit your head hard, almost disregarding the possibility of actually hitting your head on something.

Dunno, can't say i've noticed it... forum still feels normal, but like you said... i've not had a years break from it.

Either way, I'd say you were wrong about it being speed to no speed with BMX. I can't really recall it being like that that often, you're way, way more likely to have a roll out of something, or at least be able to set yourself up for a fall better. When my chain snapped kicking for a gap on my trials bike, I flipped forward and there was f**k all I could do. I got my hands out, but all my momentum meant my arms weren't going to do shit. On the other hand, the last time I went down on my BMX I knew it was coming, I had time to try and prepare myself for it, and as a result despite falling off pretty hard, it didn't hurt and I got back up and carried on riding. You don't really get that with trials unless it's with you f**king up a tap or something and you can kinda step off the back, I suppose?

With your example of dropping stairsets, I've nosed them before and I haven't (and I've never seen anyone) just stop dead and go over the bars. If you were in the situation where that was happening, you'd know about it pretty much as soon as you'd hopped. The only time where you're a little more f**ked is doing 180s or twists, but in either case again you get a feeling for it just because you have more time, and you really can feel it go tits up from the get-go. Same with that guy trying to gap over that fence - you can see from the take-off he doesn't seem to be riding as though he thinks he's made it, and ends up dead-sailoring it, which is probably why he got his hands out like that. With trials stuff, you don't really get that. Say he'd been going for that as a gap to backwheel onto the rail - if the backwheel was slightly too high, it'd feel normal-ish 'til he tried to land, then it'd just fly out from underneath him and he'd be racking himself across it.

I didn't say its like that all the time, but that in the stairset example someones dropping a stairset, and for whatever reason nosedives a lot and stays hanging onto the bars (through fear or whatever) the front wheel hits the floor and stops the bike dead, their head then hits the floor and maybe bounces upwards a little but doesn't neccessarily slide or roll. Thats definately going from speed to no speed, and technically its also got gravity as well.

I know it doesn't happen often, but it still can and theres plenty of clips on youtube of people doing it. Literally 30 seconds on youtube typing "bmx stairs faceplant" got http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXtuaqIFCZE. He doesn't seem to realise whats happening, doesn't let go and rides it out. The front wheel goes from speed to practically stopped and his face hits the floor then slides. I'm not saying a helmet would have helped a lot, but if his forehead had taken the brunt of the impact and not his nose/jaw theres no denying he could have been knoecked out or killed. If he had hit his forehead in the same way but with a helmet the impact should be lessened and so the impact of a blunt force trauma to the forehead wouldn't be quite so bad.

With that guy doing a shocking attempt at a feeble to bars (Liked the "Attention Kids! wear your helmets! to avoid that kind of things they were maked =D" comment...), that was more of a one-off thing. I also don't grind, or do barspins, whips or shit like that, so I'm also generally more in control of it all, which is again why I choose not to wear a helmet. Yes, I know I can still fall off and twat my head, but from weighing up how much I trust my bike and how I ride and the way I ride, I've made my own decision from it.

You missed the guy in the middle though, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty_PL32ESQk. I know you said you don't do barspins but still, its hardly a big fall and a helmet would have definately stopped that from being a big old cut on his head.

I do think we're both talking about diferent things, from writing this reply it now seems more like your talking about just you not wearing a helmet, where as in the last topic and before i typed out this reply you were coming across as though no bmx'er should wear a helmet because it isn't neccessary at all because nobody ever hits their head. I get that you personally might not feel the need to wear a lid, and thats your choice, but if you do in fact mean that nobody should wear a helmet for riding bmx then i'm going to have to say i disagree entirely. I think helmets should be encouraged considering how much they can prevent, and i don't think it applies just to bmx'ing but to any extreme sport really.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Krisboats

[TomR]

It's really interesting. I was saying to the police woman how i know can't ride this bike on the road anyway becuase it hasn't got a seat. And i'm not allowed to ride it during the day becuase it has no reflectors, so what was the point in getting lights as i can't get a seat. She said the only place i am allowed to ride it is at a privatly owned area.

I don't think theres a law on seats is there?

But yeah, basically you can get done for everything no matter how hard you try riding on the pavement, riding without lights, reflectors and bell. If you have lights most coppers overlook reflectors so thats them ticked off. Noone seems to give a toss about helmets, bells etc, at least i've never been bothered about 'em.

One more point for everyone to note if you're planning on getting 'smart' with a copper - If you are riding on the footpath without lights and mr plod comes up and threatens to fine you for not having lights, dont get snotty saying 'well im on the path so i dont need them' because the law states that it is an offence to cycle on the highway without lights etc, and a footpath is adopted as a part of the highway. Road is carriageway, pavement is footway, and the whole lot that is adopted by the council is highway as everything is adopted under the same part of the highways act.

[/Geeky highways junk]

As for helmets i'm the opposite to Mark, I get scared of riding BMX because pedalling like hell at something scares me more than slowly hopping about on something.

Edited January 7, 2008 by TomR