Christianity

[Pashley26]

I don't believe in any religion !

No one's seen god or mohammed ! And if there wa such thing as a "God" the world wouldn't be in the Shit state it is now !

I know quite alot about Seeq and tradition Muslim stuff, I was quite interested in this sort of stuff at school.

There is NO factual/Solid scientifical evidence saying that "Gods" have ever exhisted !

Fair enough there was a bloke called jesus who drew in the crowds in roman times but he could have been anyone !

Just my opinions, don't want to cause any offence ! We'll all find out who's right or wrong one day !

Jarrod

[N.Wood]

I also think having a religion is fine as long as you don't force it upon others.

Like the preachers on Oxford street and on tubes and stuff just make me think the particular religion they're preaching about (usually Christianity) has less credibility than it has had before.

[tank_rider]

Hello... Ses here, Andy's girlfriend. We were talking about this thread and we thought I might like to share Andy's evidence with you.

//

I was brought up in a christian household and always believed... without questioning.... without knowing. I knew lots about God but nothing of him personally. I just drifted through like that 'til I was 16... thinking I had it sorted but not realising I needed a personal relationship with Jesus and to give my life over to him.

Anyway, when I was 16 I was sexually abused by a guy I believed to be my friend... I went into total denial about this for months, everything seemed ok but a couple of months before my 17th birthday something (God) pushed me into accepting what had happened. Unfortunately my school just told me it was my word against his, inferred I was a liar and a slut and told me to forget it.

As you can imagine this was devestating... I was this sheltered little girl suddenly forced into being grown up and dealing with all this stuff.... but I could only blame God. The next two and a half years went by with me drinking myself into oblivion at every chance I got, throwing myself at any guy I saw to try and feel loved again, self harming and generally chucking my life away. And all this time I was desperately crying out to God to save me... but looking back I see I wasn't letting Him. I was putting up walls, saying I could do it myself and that I hated Him anyway.

But eventually He broke through. He stripped away my sources of comfort... told my boyfriend to break up with me, isolated me from my friends.... and I was so low I tried to kill myself.... luckily my ex turned up and sorted me out... and made me pray. I have no memory of what I prayed, but what I do know is that the next morning I woke up and I had hope again. The next few weeks were hard as I let down my walls and defences but God was there and pulled me through. The depression went and I've been a totally changed person since. It's not been easy but over the last 18 months God has changed me completely and I feel I'm really starting to know Him now.

What I've found is no matter what happens, no matter what I've done, what I need, God is there. Sometimes it's hard to see Him and sometimes He's blindingly obvious. My struggles are many...but my God is bigger than all of that.

//

Er.. so yeah. That's it. You can ask me questions if you want, I'll happily answer them. Ses

[Smo™]

think i might have a look in to this.

The f*ck is wrong with you Phil?

[Mark W]

Yeah, I had some 20-year-old black dude shouting at me over a megaphone that I was a sinner and condemned to eternal damnation as I ate my noodles by Elephant and Castle a few weeks ago. Kinda weird. It was better when he started rapping.

I think some people here are kinda missing the point when they talk about "religion" being the thing that starts wars and so on. It isn't. The concept of religion is used, but wars are always about either land, power or resources. Islamic Extremism is obviously kinda counterintuitive in that sense, but at the same time, you shouldn't really let something that by it's own admission is "extreme" make you think that it's the norm, and therefore how you should judge other people who share similar fundamental beliefs. If you've watched Zeitgeist as well, or even read around the subject at all, you'll quickly realise that the phrase "similar fundamental beliefs" means all religions, seeing as how they're all based on the same premise.

I don't really know where I stand on the "Religion = good"/"Religion = bad" thing. I personally don't believe in it at all for a variety of reasons. There are 2.1 billion Christians in the world (according to the latest figures), which is around 33% of the entire population on the world. That's a f**kload of people. And that's just one religion. However, it isn't. Christianity is split into five main churches, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican and Protestant. Inside each of them, there is then yet more subdivisions. The people who created these divisions are people who have spent their entire lives dedicated to "understanding" Christianity. The only thing that links them is the fact that none of them agree with each other. As a result, if people can dedicate decades (And cumulatively centuries) to trying to understand one book written 2,000 years ago, it doesn't really strike me as being a concrete idea. They are basically each saying that every other denomination is wrong (in the case of N.Ireland, pretty violently too...). That's not even including religions outside of Christianity. So which one is right? I wouldn't want to commit myself to something as vague as a religion when even the people who "know" what they're talking about can't agree on something. I wouldn't take my bike into a bike shop to be serviced by a group of people who all differed on how they thought it should be done, and who started fighting each other to prove their points - I'd learn to do it myself.

I also don't really find the central character all that sensical. God just doesn't make much sense to me. I know that the whole "The Bible is just a book full of contradictions" arguement is pretty old, but an all-loving God who killed almost the entire population of the Earth for not believing in his, who set plagues on millions of people to 'teach them a lesson', a God who needs to constantly be worshipped so we don't feel his wrath, etc. - I don't like to be ruled by fear. It's the weakest, yet most pervasive form of rule, and as a result, I wouldn't ever want to be associated with it. When you take into account that by it's own admission we are all born sinners, it suggests that getting up to Heaven and sitting on God's right hand side isn't going to happen, and especially when you consider how we live nowadays. I don't mean the binge-drinking culture, very high levels of casual sex (not 'til you're married ) and so on, but I mean that if you think about all the implications of your every action, you'll see that whatever you do is affecting other people in usually negative ways. It's just how our capitalist, consumerist society is, so it just seems like the ultimate goal of Christianity - to get into heaven - is never going to be reached.

The way you have to act to try and get into heaven also seems kind of strange, and the way that the whole time we're here in the Earth is to set us up for something better, afterwards, just doesn't really fill me with hope. Life on earth now is something tangible, something I can be pretty much certain is there (Don't get all post-modernist on me ). As a result, I'd rather make the most of what we have now, and enjoy my time here, rather than sacrificing what I KNOW I have on offer here for something that may or may not exist afterwards. I'm not saying I'm going to go out and deliberately break all the Ten Commandments or whatever, but hopefully you'll see what I'm getting at.

Those are a couple of the reasons I don't believe, but the thing is is that because I don't believe in it, I don't instantly think it's a bad thing. Like Andy said, it gives him hope and make him feel better as a person, and it's known that a 'relationship with God' in whatever form can help people through harder times. I would personally rather actively work for a solution to my problems, or deal with them myself, but I wouldn't call people who need to turn to God in times of hardship "Weak", simply because their methods for dealing with situations are different to my own. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, if someone learn from it then it's still OK.

The only thing I disagree with is the heavy emphasis placed on children to be Christian. From a very young age in primary school you are taught to be Christian, and I don't really think it's fair on children to just have this idea thrust upon them. By all means teach about Christianity in RE lessons alongside other major religions, but it seems unfair to basically be brainwashing children into a lifestyle that may or may not be the best for them. Again, ruling by fear isn't a just or fair way of going about business, and when one of the first principles you're teaching children is that if you're naughty you'll go to Hell, it's just not really on in my book.

EDIT: This post isn't related to that stuff from Ses, btw, that popped up on my page after I posted this. Just to clear that up...

EDIT 2: It seems from my POV that Christianity/God acts as a sort of placebo for people, which is what I was trying to put across in my post before. As in Ses' example, she found that it was easier to deal with matters by believing in a God, and although I don't share her beliefs, it worked for her. I think personally that just having that concept there to 'cling' (don't mean that in a negative sense) can help people sort out in their own heads what's going on and where to go in life, which is again why I don't really have a problem with people's use of religion/Christianity. Either way, I'm glad everything's working out for you (Ses).

[Fishy]

You sure it's not your self conscience mind telling you all that?

I've never had much luck yet with finding god or anything like that so have given up. I see it as something to keep hope and shiz not so much like a fake reality but yer, but now see it as in reality you're born, you live, you die - the end.

Edit: Don't really know how to say it properly, but you sure it wasn't just the will power of yourself to get you through all of the stuff you've mentioned?

Edited December 12, 2007 by Mr Fish

[Mark W]

EDIT 2: It seems from my POV that Christianity/God acts as a sort of placebo for people, which is what I was trying to put across in my post before. As in Ses' example, she found that it was easier to deal with matters by believing in a God, and although I don't share her beliefs, it worked for her. I think personally that just having that concept there to 'cling' (don't mean that in a negative sense) can help people sort out in their own heads what's going on and where to go in life, which is again why I don't really have a problem with people's use of religion/Christianity.

You sure it's not your self conscience mind telling you all that?

Edit: Don't really know how to say it properly, but you sure it wasn't just the will power of yourself to get you through all of the stuff you've mentioned?

That's sort of what I was getting at with that. I think sometimes people don't give themselves enough credit for their own resilience, ingenuinty and ability to overcome problems. However, if a belief in a higher being can help them in some way realise that, then it's not really a bad thing as long as people realise that the strength to do it comes from within, not necessarily an external source.

[Revolver]

i believe more in karma, something closer to a force that decides what stuff happens to you and when, based on whether you deserve it etc

it doesn't stop me doing bad stuff though

perhaps because i'm not religious and don't have strong beliefs

[Fishy]

That's sort of what I was getting at with that. I think sometimes people don't give themselves enough credit for their own resilience, ingenuinty and ability to overcome problems. However, if a belief in a higher being can help them in some way realise that, then it's not really a bad thing as long as people realise that the strength to do it comes from within, not necessarily an external source.

Yeah man, thats what I meant, but posted mine at the same time as you. Just couldn't get my words out properly.

[Mark W]

i believe more in karma, something closer to a force that decides what stuff happens to you and when, based on whether you deserve it etc

I can kinda see how the principle of karma can be shown to work though. Not necessarily as far as the reincarnation stage, but basically, if you're a total cock to people all the time, it follows that people will begin to be a cock back to you, and that your negative reputation will spread. You can even see it in effect here, in for example the FS/WTD section. You f**k people around with trades, you get a shitty reputation, people are less likely to help you out when you want stuff.

The "here and now" form of karma, I think, is one of the best aspects out of any religion going. It's basically showing you how by being a decent person now, your life will be better - and by that, it means your life on Earth NOW, not your "afterlife", wherever/whatever/however that may be.

[Gavyn.]

Yeah,

Bloody hell, fair play for typing all that.

I was brought up a christian or prodestant as my dad would say, he hates catholics because he was brought up to hate them, He tried forcing it on me but I told him where to stick it. I'm not really interested in religion, I don't belive in god but I understand that there may well be some kind of superior being, and if there is then I'd like him to be on my side. Everyone is allowed there own opinion as far as i'm concerned, at least they are in Britain anyway.

I don't understand how jehovas can get on your nerves if they come to my door I just say " do you look both ways before crossing the road?" then close the door.

I don't belive in "what comes around, goes around.", "Karma", whatever you want to call it because I think that life is just a strange unpredictable serious of unfortunate or fortunate conincedences.

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

Mark, you think too much, but seem to have the nail on the head there with the placebo thing.

i'm going to bring this up mainly because i'm intrigued by some of the answers I'll get and also because it could be an impressive shitstorm;

creationism, now personally i believe it to be utter shit, in the common perception of the concept (god made adam and eve and we didn't evolve from monkeys) there's far more than enough evidence to lead me to believe that the scientists are right on this one, we did evolve.

but you get headf**k when it comes back to whatever we evolved from, obviously as mark said this life is tangible, i.e. it's happening here and now and descartes has pretty much got that one nailed too. so it's pretty certain we exist in some form. but something had to form that in the beginning, even if it happened by chance, something needed to form it in the beginning, and now we move into existentialism and universal physics.... but it's still a belief in creationism by something out of any form of theoretical control E.g. a 'higher power', but in a less archaic sense.

so i'll gladly sit under the agnostic tree for now.

[Mark W]

Yeah, when I said I thought it was accurate, I didn't mean in a "Do a good deed now, and 30 years from now something good will happen to you" way - I just meant that, from my experience, if you tend to be a nice person to people, you'll ususally get people being nice to you back, which is the sort of underpinning reason of karma.

Mark, you think too much, but seem to have the nail on the head there with the placebo thing.

i'm going to bring this up mainly because i'm intrigued by some of the answers I'll get and also because it could be an impressive shitstorm;

creationism, now personally i believe it to be utter shit, in the common perception of the concept (god made adam and eve and we didn't evolve from monkeys) there's far more than enough evidence to lead me to believe that the scientists are right on this one, we did evolve.

but you get headf**k when it comes back to whatever we evolved from, obviously as mark said this life is tangible, i.e. it's happening here and now and descartes has pretty much got that one nailed too. so it's pretty certain we exist in some form. but something had to form that in the beginning, even if it happened by chance, something needed to form it in the beginning, and now we move into existentialism and universal physics.... but it's still a belief in creationism by something out of any form of theoretical control E.g. a 'higher power', but in a less archaic sense.

so i'll gladly sit under the agnostic tree for now.

It's just a pity that Descartes created what would become known as Cartesian Dualism simply to prove the existence of God (by saying that God was the way that the immaterial soul connected with the material body, by focussing our immaterial soul's aims and goals into the body through the Pineal Gland (I had to research this for my photography (yes, photography) project's production analysis last night ). Either way though, his "I reflect, therefore I am" idea is pretty bulletproof. The whole "If you are capable of doubting yourself, there has to be something there to doubt itself" is pretty solid. His idea about how God meddles with everything is a bit 'meh' though.

The evolution thing is kind of weird. It's hard to say what's going on and what happened, simply because we're not intelligent enough yet. If you look back at our relatively recent history, with the way that when - for example - people got scurvy they'd "cut out" the bits of bad blood from the system, whereas now we'd consider that laughable. Stuff like that, that was an almost unquestioned belief that is now, 200 years later, regarded as being total bollocks suggests to me that we're not as intelligent as we think we are, and that's it's just that we lack the mental prowess to either comprehend concepts like infinity or how things can come about from seemingly nothing.

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

*snip*

I doth my cap to you for a very educated response.

have a bunny

[Mark W]

As a token of my thanks for your gift, have a dog groomed to look like a seascape:

[Revolver]

yep

be nice and you get nice back

be a dick and you get dick back

i'm not gay, so i'll take the nice option

It's kinda complicate dto write down, but i also meant that, say, if you were to always be a positive person, but you seemed always to receive negativity, that perhaps later down the line the positivity is rewarded...

something like that.

I mostly like the fact that traffic lights favour me when i'm late. or seem to

safe, fate

[rudirudirudirudirudi]

a bit off topic but i have to say it.

i f**kin hate the way chavs wear those imitation crosses on the beads thing. ( sorry dont no what there called) i mean if you wear a cross because your religous fair enough. but just wearin it for the sake of it just pees me right off.

i myself believe there is something else out there, some sort of force or greater bieng or something, i just dont really believe in god, just believe that religion is something to bring people together and give them something to put their hope into. it gives people hope basicly is what im trying to say. i believe that the bible is just a load of storys that show the best in mankind. ideals that you should live too, to have a happier better world.

i quite like to read and i read the whole bible once. cant remember why i started reading it. just bored i think. was actually quite good.

[N.Wood]

i f**kin hate the way chavs wear those imitation crosses on the beads thing. ( sorry dont no what there called) i mean if you wear a cross because your religous fair enough. but just wearin it for the sake of it just pees me right off.

2 pac 4 lyfe.

I agree with the karma thing, and in a way the 'everything happens for a reason' is a similar deal. But that could be a placebo effect of 'i didn't do this, and some good has come out of it, must have happened for a reason'.

but you could have done 'this' and even better come out of it, you never know.

Interesting, i like having dicussions with my mum (who was brought up in a religeous family) about this

[Krisboats]

I think marks completely right in that mini essay post, and its almost exactly how i feel about it myself as well. I don't believe in god or Jesus but some people do, and if it makes them better people for it... i can't see anything wrong with it at all.

The karma thing though, I don't think it exists at all, and the examples put forwards in this thread seem to fit the idea of causality more than karma. The idea of things having a cause and effect, the whole "be nice and people are nice back" idea is the same thing, similarly I've just drank 3 pints of chocolate nesquick and now i need to go for a piss. I think the idea of karma is supposed to be on a wider basis, in that if you do nice things nice things happen to you. So say you help an old lady cross the street, you might find a fiver on the path on your way home, and that as a theory is something I'd like to believe in but am too scientifically minded to be naive enough to fully believe it, which is why i don't think it exists.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Krisboats

[Mark W]

True, that last example I wouldn't expect to happen. With the thing about treating people, I guess you're right about that not really being karma, but yeah, it still seems to work out. Just the wrong term I guess

[Dr Dig]

I was raised a catholic and so for years was forced to accept the bible and attend Church. As a result of this i now, perhaps somewhat ignorantly, shun all religion. I do believe in a higher power i just don't feel attending Church on Sunday etc will get me into gods good books. If I'm a sinner and doomed to eternal damnation (which going by Catholicism i defiantly am) why don't i just enjoy the time i have here. I mean people go on about how god gave us this earth to enjoy, so why do f**k spend all day on a Sunday doing bugger all to thank him, if he gives us earth to enjoy he wants to see us go out and enjoy it... right? As for the bible, apart from the obvious arguments against it like who did Kane and able mount? I also think it was written 2000 years ago as a sort of law. I think because people were less well educated and they thought god would smite then if they disobeyed "his rules" some smart person realized that by printing a book full of rules set forth by god, people would obey them. And at the end of the day it worked then but I'm not so sure about today. Like people have said the 10 commandments are fundamentally good and i think they should try to be followed, its the people who take it word for word as the truth that do my head in. I also hate Catholicism as its a very class based religion with the "upper" class being in favor with the priest and the old catholic family's all have some dodgy past covered up by the church. In my local village about 15 years before i was born the Church payed for a member of the parish who had been abusing a alter girl to disappear to Spain for two years. And as the girls family were all catholics and the church forgave him it was forgotten. I know if some b*****d fiddled with my kids id get back at him regardless of what the Church said.

[Janson]

cant be bothered reading the essays previously posted.

i am not a fan of religion. plus, the only decent truths in the bible are based on common sense.

it's not rocket science that you should not kill, or take your neighbours wife.

This new, one-of-a-kind board book teaches young children that God made everything for a specific purpose. Each animal presented reveals amazing features that leaves no doubt that God is the loving designer behind each one! Ken Ham and Buddy Davis communicate the importance of trusting in Jesus—the Creator who cares about them. The easily identifiable animals are familiar to any child, and the always-moving “googley eyes” combine with rich color illustrations to make this sturdy book both educational and fun!

we got taught religion at school. but it was never "the truth". never ever. but i guess i'm just a pessimistic scientist...

[Bondy]

I'm a total atheist, i dont have a problem with people believing in a 'god' if they feel it gives them some kind of hope/comfort in the world.....even if they are totally wrong in what they believe in (in terms of a superior being) not the moral values that some christian may adopt (although im sure a majority of us people who arent religious have the same moral values as christians).

Not going to type much for this thread, but id just like to see some of your opinions on firstly children being indoctrinated at a young age by parents/schools etc without freedom to choose for themselves what they want to believe in, especially in families with fundamental beliefs, has anyone experienced this?.....would any of you who believe in religion force your children into a religion?

Also if youve got a few minutes, give this a watch and tell me what you think, i've posted this in a previous thread before but it still amuses/worries me that this guy is on a prime time t.v channel (even if it is america) firstly and also where he gets his ideas from and it is worrying that someone could be soo ignorant.

[Mark W]

Not going to type much for this thread, but id just like to see some of your opinions on firstly children being indoctrinated at a young age by parents/schools etc without freedom to choose for themselves what they want to believe in, especially in families with fundamental beliefs, has anyone experienced this?.....would any of you who believe in religion force your children into a religion?

The only thing I disagree with is the heavy emphasis placed on children to be Christian. From a very young age in primary school you are taught to be Christian, and I don't really think it's fair on children to just have this idea thrust upon them. By all means teach about Christianity in RE lessons alongside other major religions, but it seems unfair to basically be brainwashing children into a lifestyle that may or may not be the best for them. Again, ruling by fear isn't a just or fair way of going about business, and when one of the first principles you're teaching children is that if you're naughty you'll go to Hell, it's just not really on in my book.

[br3n]

off topic but slightly related..

You know the teacher whos class named the bear mohamed... I understand the concept as to why it wasnt aproved of (naming someone god for example) so why are there soooo many people called mohamed? is there a line between humans claiming to be god and teddy bears?

The crowds of people protesting saying she should have the death penalty, I cant think of a bigger waste of lifes than those devoted to that religion.