The State Of Trials Today

[Tommy d]

maybe i like queing

Ash you're leaving yourself wide open to jokes about how you like looking at people from behind

ANYWAY, I reckon at some point street trials will go into a phase kind of opposite to how it is now, as concerns big inch riding vs creative lines riding. Obviously there are quite a few people now who do the creative stuff but if you went in the video section and picked the first 5 videos the chances are 4 of them would just be people doing the biggest ups/gaps that they can...

That's me feeling optimistic. I guess there will always be a bit of both. And there will always be people who work on the technical skill side of riding so they can be good in competitions.

[Greetings]

There's got to be a limit. The problem is that reaching it has as much to do with the strength of the rider, as with his technique. Strength is something that you can develop fairly quickly but technique takes ages.

I think that there are no young riders at the moment who might start pushing the limits in the future. It's all down to the old generation, and from all the riders I know, I think Tra has got the closest to the limits of what's possible in this sport. I think that when he quits, we'll have to wait many years for another rider to reach his level. There's still Fontenoy, Bealey, Hermance and others but none of them have that amount of power, and at such a level of riding that's the key to pushing the limits.

[JohnyMilton]

Dont you think if were keep pushing the boundries of trials, that we will get to point where its just impossible to get any bigger i mean "will anyone ever hook up an 8 ft wall from flat?" I dont see that happening with out knocking out there teeth!

But think about it, do you think some will ever side hop over 69"? honestly can you?

Well I think no, so I think at some point we will hit a dead end and trials will stick in the same palce, unless we get more urban, which is happening, so trials is growing wider, but I dont see move, for example, sidehops and hook-ups getting to un-reasonable heights, theres a limit on what a human and a bike can do, lol!

Johny!

Edited November 13, 2007 by JohnyTrials

[abtrials]

its all part and parcell of trials the people that inch hunt, in effect open up more lines by being able to do higher taps, side hos and gaps etc, so we are all aiming for the same thing and it is enjoyment at the end of the day.

i think trials will evolve and evolve, but for the likes of less equiped riders its about catching the rest up, and thats all the motivation yiou need. if a certain rider inspires you to ride you ride.

[JD™]

ANYWAY, I reckon at some point street trials will go into a phase kind of opposite to how it is now, as concerns big inch riding vs creative lines riding. Obviously there are quite a few people now who do the creative stuff but if you went in the video section and picked the first 5 videos the chances are 4 of them would just be people doing the biggest ups/gaps that they can...

you mean like it used to be 3/4 years ago? I agree that it will probably happen again, but you can't pretend that that is a forward progression!

Trials evolves - hence the reason of the VHS (hell yea) called evolve back around that same time. It always has evolved and it always will evolve.

J

[Tony Harrison]

I had a thought... if trials was in the olympics, would it be individual disciplines like 'sideways high jump', or would it be sections?

What bored me of trials as I was seeing it when I rode, lots was the whole queueing/tapping thing. Now, I know it didn't mean I had to do it, but I was getting stick for not wanting to be involved. I didn't want to hang around and tap some wall after someone else, it was boring!!!

For me, the inspiration comes from watching people like Akkers, boon, Ashton, Porter and co bring a bit of variation and flow into it. This is what I think is interesting for the public to watch, and it was watching people like that that got me into trials in the first place.

I just think it's important people do what they want, and not necessarily do what everyone else is. I'm getting back into riding, and maybe sorting out a shorter (oh my god!!) bike because that's what I enjoyed most. Perhaps 'highest xxx' threads discourage creativity, and that's why they irritate me.

As for the 'state of trials'?? Like I said, for the most part it bores me. The comps are good, and I've got respect for the guys that do these, and also those pushing the street boundaries, Ali C, etc, it's good to watch.

[Alex Dark]

I think that trials has to branch out more......its already started...people are putting street moves into their riding, making the lines flow with less jerky hopping based moves....

Look at akrigg. lenosky etc they both have awesome style...it just seems to me that trials riders are starting to lose their individuality, so many people are riding deng based / inspired bikes and just trying to go farther, higher, more etc.... im not saying this is a bad thing, as its just natural progression towards the best bikes for the task but i think we need to see some more style, it also helps make trials look better to the spectator, flowing individualistic moves and lines are the way forwards in my opinion!

[MadManMike]

Look at BMX, people are still coming up with moves that, to the general public, don't even seem physically possible!

Trials has a long way to go yet, and I think styles will constantly change but I have no doubt the as bikes evolve the moves will get bigger and more impressive.

I remember the first time someone hopped onto a thin bar - now everyone's doing it. The standard now seems to be getting up walls as tall as me - unheard of a few years back.

[011001000110010101110010]

there are a set number of bmx moves eg. flip and whip and x up. When you can do all three you can then learn flip whips, flip x ups, x up whips, whip to x up etc. Trials isnt like that so much, street riding is more though however.

[r2wtrials]

There are other things to think of... do you want trials to be popular to the public or just keep it "in House". What i mean by that is would it be good for trials if the public could watch it without knowing anything about the sport.

I am from the motorcycle trials side of things and what we do in club trials would be very boring to the public, but the indoor and urban trials are exciting for them. If someone asks what i do as i hobby and i say trials the only way for them to understand, if they are over 30, is to mention the tv program Kickstart. It was watched by millions who had no idea what trials actually was. OK so it wasn't "proper" trials but it created an interest and a lasting memory.

I don't ride in many mototrials comps anymore because i prefer to go out and play, a group of 5 or 10 of us go to one of several practice grounds we have and just have a bloody good laugh... but if i want to watch trials i will go to a british championship, world round or an indoor. I observe at trials but wouldn't go to a club trial to watch. Bores me!!

My favorite time for cycle trials, and remember i am an over 40 year old here, was the original stuff from the bike shows with the two martins and friends doing twin lane sections against each other. This was also popular in the usa at the time i seem to remember. Sections side by side, ridden against the clock and with time added on for each point lost. Was exciting and technical at the same time. People like Akrigg showed their true skills by being being able to ride accurately but also go for the iffy line if a little behind the other rider. Now that would be perfect for urban events, the public would love it and wouldn't need any knowledge of the sport. We could all still do our proper trials in the woods or up on the rocks but the sport would benefit from having an "out in the open" discipline. And that format would work well in something like the olympics... knock out rounds and a final.

Just a thought!!

[Tony Harrison]

there are a set number of bmx moves eg. flip and whip and x up. When you can do all three you can then learn flip whips, flip x ups, x up whips, whip to x up etc.

And what do we have in trials? Tucks. No surprise BMX is far more interesting to watch, and also has far more of an identity outside of the discipline.

[Mike W]

Ok, trials is shit then why are so many people still riding?

All sports evolve, this is just trials moving forwards, trends will come and go.

[Krisboats]

Ok, trials is shit then why are so many people still riding?

Becasue trials is really good fun to ride, but sadly most of the time with these standard inch counting moves all the time it just looks shit to watch.

[chrishayton]

Where did i say i dont like taps or taps are crap? i didnt Im saying about the lines that people wait in to do a tap OR sidehop OR gap ETC.

wtf is a 'sidehop'. your missing the 'ehop' after it

not being funny but its boring that people keep trying to make trials more 'interesting' and like bmx. its not suprising that the people who start these topics ride their trials bike like a bmx (not being disrespectful as i personally like that style of riding and when its done well its great) but trials is not bmx. you cant get through a worlds section being all flowy and bunnyhopping everything. trials is what people like vincent and kenny beleay ride, big taps, sidehops, tricky off camber technical stuff. its not overly exciting for the general public but why should we try and change the sport for that, and to be fair ive done big taps and gaps before and random people in the street have walked over in amazement as they have never seen it before and dont understand how i can ride a bike on to a railing etc.

I agree that the tuck thing is beyond gay and that the lining up for taps is also lame but its competitive and counting inchs makes you progress when your pushed by the person riding next to you, i know for me my riding improved drastically riding with someone a better than me and always trying the same things after each other.

bmx is so fashion based these days, all that matters ( on the non pro end of the scale) is the look of your bike or the clothes you wear, actual riding means very little. it would be a shame if trials when the same way

[Tony Harrison]

Some good points Chris. My issue with the inch counting is that it's like training for a battle that never comes. What's the point in being able to sidehop 50" if the only good thing about it is being able to say you can sidehop 50"? When you see Vince riding street in Paris, you know those skills will be transferred onto the competition circuit.

It's like there's no point to it. For those that don't ride comps, I wonder where the enjoyment is. To me it's like those people who do weight training just so they can get big... maybe this is just me looking at it in too functional a way. Personally my enjoyment with trials came from doing street/rock sections, or conquering a specific obstacle like a big rock or an awkward gap. In such cases it was about getting that particular obstacle done, regardless of how high/long/wide it actually was. Sometimes it's like these days a gap/hop has to be measured in order to qualify it/find out if it was worth doing.

[TrashZen]

are we heading towards a sport which is similar to athletics in that bikes/geometry get leaner and techniques get better, meaning we can add height to every move there is just as pro athletes shave milliseconds off or add millimeters to world records over time?

is there a curve which will flatten out? will the top riders find it harder and harder to improve, whilst in the meantime others come closer to catching them up? where will people hit a brick-wall in terms of height? will anyone ever hook up an 8 ft wall from flat?

what do you think?

discuss.

no arguing. no naming names.

GO!

Actually, does it matter if we reach a flat? Would everyone stop riding if we knew what is going to be the ultimate limit? Answer is no. For example in running athletics, it takes an awful lot of training and dedication to beat the few extra hundredths of second and reach the current top ranking... so what? There is still room for competition. If that's not against a benchmark (for example an unbroken record that no-one ever manages to reach again), then that's competing with other riders of your generation (yes the best riders out there will eventually be dragging behind, you can't beat age, but that's what keeps things going and interesting for new riders). And anyway it is difficult to compare past and present performances for athletes from different generations since the equipment improves so much.

Then maybe there will be new breeds of Trials bikes, with all sorts of add-on allowed (how about an air-pressurised swinging chainstay, you could press a button during your extension and be catapulted to sidehop over 8 feet?)

You'd still need all the control and balance, it would be a different toy and sections would be bigger. The same you have a different competition circuit for moto trials, they don't have less merit because of the motor, its just another sport.

Maybe there'll be more dirt-type riding with trialsy moves (or the reverse)..., something like Chris Akkrig does sometimes.

Then there's the sport at the individual level, where you can enjoy a ride without necessarily competing, just trying to improve your own riding or enjoy the feel of the bike on your fav move.

[boon racoon]

its not suprising that the people who start these topics ride their trials bike like a bmx

I've got a BMX and I ride it totally differently to my 24 inch bike. But anyway...

I think most people have missed the point. I wasn't saying at all there is anything wrong with people riding to "inch hunt" and practicing sidehops all day even if I wouldn't find that especially interesting myself. What I find interesting personally is finding a unique spot and a way of linking 2 unique objects together. Not finding a wall which is half an inch higher to try / practice sidehopping it.

My questions were concerned the limits of urban riding, the heights involved and the geometry of the bike. And where will things go once the limits are (or are close to) being reached? (If they ever will, I don't know?)

Point being - to the people who've said 10 years ago a 30" sidehop was huge and now we're doing 50+

Trials was a lot newer then, especially stock bikes coming from MTBs. So the potential for change in terms of geometry was very large. And so was the evolution of frame design. These days, hasn't everything been tried? We've tried super high BBs then gone back again. We've tried super long frames and gone to back to ones a bit shorter for the most part.

I've not seen (m)any design or geometry changes to the 2008 Deng frames besides some different CNC bits. Why is this? Because the OPTIMUM geometry has been reached and kept constant? Even over the last 2 years frames have remained relatively similar.

So if bike design has reached it's peak and bikes are as good as they can be - the only thing that can improve is technique. And that's my point, there must be a limit to human strength and the forces of gravity limiting how high riders can hop?

Then what?

[basher]

It's like there's no point to it. For those that don't ride comps, I wonder where the enjoyment is.

The enjoyment is making the move and feeling good in yourself that you have done it and proud of yourself.

I have to say i hate this inch counting thing i think its so sad and people are doing it these days to show off to others, useing it as bragging rights. I see every wall as a different one to the rest even if its the same height.

As for what chris said. I agree but also i dont in ways about the bmx trials thing. I see trials as 2 seperate bits meself competion riding and street. And both boundaries are being pushed and one way i think street is being pushed even futher with inovative lines linking things together and doing big lines in different ways ect like danny mac and riders like him. When you say you hate how people are trying to make trials bmx or what ever and trials is people like beleay well yeah it is but the riders that try to ride trials with bmx style arent competition riders they are riding it for the fun so there making trials there own and not conforming to what trials is for competitions and i think people doing that pushs the sports the same way as people doing 60inch tap.

As for tucks well these days i think people are doing them for looks and to say look how much i tucked on this pic im well good. And there concentrateing on tucking more than getting up the wall. When your going for huge sidehops i think tucks are obviously going to be needed but with walls that you see people posting up in pics and there tucking stupidly i think that with right technique you can avoid tucking.

[Tomm]

Then what?

360 off?

I think too many people think that they can be world champ one day. Actually, that's not quite right. Too many people think that if they can sidehop 52", they'll be world champ standard, because it's something you can easily compare to. When obviously the top riders can do so much more than big TGS.

The future? People will probably just ride their bike for fun with their mates, doing what they find interesting. Which is pretty much what most of us do anyway. I really couldn't care less if the world sidehop record has been broken, and it wouldn't change how I rode. So, for me at least, I wouldn't care if a plateau had been reached.

Besides, there's always thinner/higher/more wobbly things to ride on, perhaps that's where trials will go. A section made entirely out of scafold poles, hanging in mid air, over a pit of spikes. That's the future. You mark my words.

[boon racoon]

360 up?

Haha that's the future...the 360 tap up! I'm going right now to practice that one.

Edited November 14, 2007 by the boon

[chrishayton]

I've got a BMX and I ride it totally differently to my 24 inch bike. But anyway...

I think most people have missed the point. I wasn't saying at all there is anything wrong with people riding to "inch hunt" and practicing sidehops all day even if I wouldn't find that especially interesting myself. What I find interesting personally is finding a unique spot and a way of linking 2 unique objects together. Not finding a wall which is half an inch higher to try / practice sidehopping it.

My questions were concerned the limits of urban riding, the heights involved and the geometry of the bike. And where will things go once the limits are (or are close to) being reached? (If they ever will, I don't know?)

Point being - to the people who've said 10 years ago a 30" sidehop was huge and now we're doing 50+

Trials was a lot newer then, especially stock bikes coming from MTBs. So the potential for change in terms of geometry was very large. And so was the evolution of frame design. These days, hasn't everything been tried? We've tried super high BBs then gone back again. We've tried super long frames and gone to back to ones a bit shorter for the most part.

I've not seen (m)any design or geometry changes to the 2008 Deng frames besides some different CNC bits. Why is this? Because the OPTIMUM geometry has been reached and kept constant? Even over the last 2 years frames have remained relatively similar.

So if bike design has reached it's peak and bikes are as good as they can be - the only thing that can improve is technique. And that's my point, there must be a limit to human strength and the forces of gravity limiting how high riders can hop?

Then what?

Dont get me wrong matt, i think you have a good style of riding and your one of the best in that field. I just feel that your making out that trials cant go anywhere unless it adopts that style in someway. I supose Rowan jones basically has one of the best styles on the scene and he goes big too and if trials went towards that direction it wouldnt be a bad thing( danny mac too), but from a competion orientated view and the view of a person who enjoy all aspects of trials and bike riding in general I still think that trials is a sport in itself and doesnt need to cross over or mix with bmx just to suceed in being popular. trials is hard for the public to appreciate because its so technical and looks impossible balancing on backwheel on a rail 4 foot in the air then jumping to another without falling off or hooking a 6 foot wall but thats not a downside to the sport and we shouldnt try to be more mainstreem as a sport to attract publicity.

Martyn Ashton is doing well with his demos and he has a streety/bmx'y style and it works because the crowd instantly can recognise it which is whats needed but i still dont think the whole sport should change just because its easier to take in for the public.

I hate when people put this cliche but, Ride how you want to ride, if you want to be able to sidehop or tap higher than anyone else then go for it and people like damon and tunni are amazing atheltes. and riders like yourself are awesome with your creativity and linking of moves. The sport can progress in many ways but i still see comp based technique as the core of trials and i guess that means that practicing sidehops and taps is still important. (have you seen the size of the obstacles at UCI worlds rounds)

Sorry to use examples in there ( although non where negative ) and it helped me explain myself.

[boon racoon]

Sorry to use examples in there ( although non where negative ) and it helped me explain myself.

No it's fine...I'm glad you have some decent thoughts and didn't just start shouting the odds

I'm only trying to make a decent thread and provoke some discussion!