Ftw Trials Frame

[Tim/Trialsin USA]

Hey all,

Coming in very limited run this fall/winter are frames by Frank The Welder (indcutee into Mountain Bike Hall of Fame this year). Frank is known industry wide for designs thats beauty eminates from principles of engineering. A precision competition machine, not lipstick fashion. Hand built one at a time in USA, these are something more than the copy cats flooding the market currently.

Some design features include:

1. Highest grade of 6K series aluminum. There are many grades of aluminum on the market. At this level, there can be only one grade used.......the best.

2. Stiffest frame on the market. The more your frame flexes, the more muscle energy you are wasting. The combination of top quality tubing and intellegent structural design are no accidents here.

3. Simple, clean and durable chain tensioning system. I used to think horizontal dropouts were a good idea, until I had to change a number of peoples tires at events and make sure the disc was re-aligned.....all while in a rush. Vertical dropouts allow for the same alignment, everytime. The current offering of tensioners for vertical dropouts all (for the most part) hang off the derailleur hanger. For the obvious reasons, of smashing etc.., is not satisfactory either. There have been recent additions to the market of rear hubs having the tensioner built in.....this, however straps you to one hub and its exclusiveness of cog. The tensioner mounting system used here on the *** frame is protected and simple and functional....hall mark of a well thought out design in trials. Recognizing that because of different chains/cogs/freewheel combinations not all chain wrap is the same, this tensioner may be set to pull up OR push down on the chain.

4. Derailleur hanger. Personally I think it is silly to design a bike totally wed to having or not having a derailleur hanger. Simple answers are often the best. The derailleur hanger is not mounted behind the axle bolt/QR, thus does not even need to be on the bike (to be smashed) when going single speed. If you would like gears to get you from riding point A to riding point B, simple bolt it on and away you go.

OK, OK.......on to the pics

[basher]

The frame looks sweet, but i think its all going to boil down to price any news on that?

[BenLeacock™]

Woow that looks pritty cool, vario like

It says that the prices are around $800-900

any news of geo ?

looks loonng

[Jonny Jones]

What ever happened to two triangles? With all due respect, that doesn't even look like a bike haha! As soon as I have the money, im going back to a standard looking bike with a seat! Best of luck with this frame.

[Alex-Mitchinson]

That is ugly as

[Tim/Trialsin USA]

That is ugly as

a 50cc motorcycle?

[AdamR28]

My mate had a Metalhead a few years back and that was a top frame. Really unsure about the looks of this trials one, geo sounds ok though. Saw the highly scientific stiffness testing on OTN, certainly interesting I'm sure it will turn out to be a good frame, if a little pricey for the UK market.

[Stan Shaw]

I quite like the frame, it has some nice little touches and its different.

What are the weights of these frames like?

Also, you say its the stiffest frame on the market? I ain't so sure about that, especially in the weight:stiffness ratio.

[Tim/Trialsin USA]

My mate had a Metalhead a few years back and that was a top frame. Really unsure about the looks of this trials one, geo sounds ok though. Saw the highly scientific stiffness testing on OTN, certainly interesting I'm sure it will turn out to be a good frame, if a little pricey for the UK market.

Ha, is that reletive of Eleanor Roosevelt or Margret Thatcher....ha, ha, ha

While I am sure stiffness testing of a part going onto space vehicle requires advanced university degrees and tools only aquireable by MI5 or CIA..... I am quite sure bicycle frames do not require any such efforts to determine stiffness. Beyond a certain point, minutia merely becomes a marketing tool.

Price is reletive to ones perception of the product. If indeed, there is no value seen in higher grade of tubing, construction by the engineer, production methods in ahearance to decent level of attention to enviroment and labor laws and some real engineering behind the product..........then yes indeed, I would advise purchasing like a commoditiy......solely on price.

As for the looks, there is not one bike that every single rider thinks is the best looking. Indeed, there might be some untangible value in knowing your not one of the sheep.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Tim/Trialsin USA

[AdamR28]

While I am sure stiffness testing of a part going onto space vehicle requires advanced university degrees and tools only aquireable by MI5 or CIA..... I am quite sure bicycle frames do not require any such efforts to determine stiffness. Beyond a certain point, minutia merely becomes a marketing tool.

Price is reletive to ones perception of the product. If indeed, there is no value seen in higher grade of tubing, construction by the engineer and some real engineering behind the product..........then yes indeed, I would advise purchasing like a commoditiy......solely on price.

As for the looks, there is not one bike that every single rider thinks is the best looking. Indeed, there might be some untangible value in knowing your not one of the sheep.

I agree on all points! It's just a shame the average age of riders here in the UK seems to be lower than most countries, meaning the consumer generally plumps for a 'cooler' frame which costs less.

[Tim/Trialsin USA]

I agree on all points! It's just a shame the average age of riders here in the UK seems to be lower than most countries, meaning the consumer generally plumps for a 'cooler' frame which costs less.

I think the same exists here as well. Just every now and then I feel there is a product truely worth the higher asking price, and try to elicit understanding from the market. Aston Martins are not for everyone, for most a Nissan 300z will do........ but there is a difference.

[matt rushton]

What does that thing weight??? Also any more details on price??

Matt Rushton

[Petrum]

looks interesting, i kinda like the chain tensioner idea!

***= for the win?

[JonMack]

Frank The Welder

[basher]

What does that thing weight??? Also any more details on price??

Matt Rushton

You havnt got a chance of being able to aford it matty.

[tubender]

that frame, still in development really weighs 4.9 lbs with the tensioner, no brake booster is needed. This is actual, not "claimed" weight. though, I do really like the frame shape, it's not what controls how I design things. Many of the current frame products that are quite pleasing the the eye, have engineering compromises. Many may feel these are acceptable, I do not. My goal is to produce a frame of superior strength to weight ratio for better performance and longer service.

[Token]

2.22kg is mint for a bike that looks like a tank.

Hearing aid brown doesn't really do the bike any justice. I know it's only aesthetics but you can't deny it makes a slight difference when you look at it. Raw alu.....?

[tom jersey]

a 50cc motorcycle?

ok then, it looks quite nice and looks pretty strong!

[Savage]

Price, name and graphics will be sorted later this week, along with full final spec and other info. Colour will be electric blue, agree with comments about the NHS shade. This frame is aimed at those that want an individual hand made item that will last, initial frames will be supplied on a pre order basis.

Ben.

[Joe Sheehan!]

a 50cc motorcycle?

oh thats mature!

thats going to get you lots of frames sold!

knob.

[Tim/Trialsin USA]

oh thats mature!

thats going to get you lots of frames sold!

knob.

What?.... just engaging in equality in depth of commentary....ha, ha, ha

[J Trials 31]

oh thats mature!

thats going to get you lots of frames sold!

knob.

He'll sell plenty of frames! If I wasn't going to buy a mod, I'd probably buy one from him! Anyway, Tim, I might be buying a bike from you when I sell my bike. Just not completely sure yet.

[Token]

Going on the whole super stiff idea, I notice how you said something along the lines of (forgive for not quoting directly): 'The more your frame flexes, the more muscle energy you are wasting'.

Now I was just wondering how this works, understandabley if you put energy into a frame and some of that energy is 'stolen' in flex. But what happens when the frame forms back to its original shape, I thought the law of elasticity means that objects return to there original shape unless they are taken past their elastic limit. So imagine you've got somebody going to gap off a wall, some of there energy is taken into flexing the frame, but as they take off the frame forms back into its original shape and much like a bouncy ball it will 'ping' back into shape and likewise your energy wont be wasted as the bike catapults back into shape. I'm probably missing something really obvious here but I'm genuinely interested about the whole fad of super stiffness, wouldn't it be better to make a lighter frame which wasn't rock solid?

[Tim/Trialsin USA]

Going on the whole super stiff idea, I notice how you said something along the lines of (forgive for not quoting directly): 'The more your frame flexes, the more muscle energy you are wasting'.

Now I was just wondering how this works, understandabley if you put energy into a frame and some of that energy is 'stolen' in flex. But what happens when the frame forms back to its original shape, I thought the law of elasticity means that objects return to there original shape unless they are taken past their elastic limit. So imagine you've got somebody going to gap off a wall, some of there energy is taken into flexing the frame, but as they take off the frame forms back into its original shape and much like a bouncy ball it will 'ping' back into shape and likewise your energy wont be wasted as the bike catapults back into shape. I'm probably missing something really obvious here but I'm genuinely interested about the whole fad of super stiffness, wouldn't it be better to make a lighter frame which wasn't rock solid?

You are correct. The frame does come back. The question is at what rate. That is to say if the "spring" effect is slow, you would not necessarily be gaining anything.... in fact wasting muscle energy. Havine said that, I remember watching Ot Pi use the "spring" effect of the frame with not too crappy a result! The trick is that if a person weighing 140 pounds find the weight of his body perfect to gain extra help from the frames spring effect....... a person 120 pounds or 180 pounds will not. Thus, unless you are able to "tune" the elasticity of the frame for each rider.......... most riders will not gain from it.

[Elliot]

....

You got me thinking about it, I have an old echo bounce frame, which supposedly has sprung chainstays, but I don’t think it works well at all. I recon when a frame flexes, the direction of flex may not be correct to give you forward impetus. For example the bb yoke flexes to the right when your putting alot of pressure on the right pedal, when the frame snaps back into shape its going from left to right, which is no help if your doing a pedal kick forwards. And its not just going to be the bb yoke that flexes, the whole frame will flex all over the place. So (if my figuring is right!), if you wanted a frame thats acts as a spring, you need not only to make a frame that flexes correctly for the rider, but a frame that flexes in the right direction too!