The Universe Discussion

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

Estimates are that the Black Hole at the centre of our galaxy has a mass around 3.7 million times that of our sun... That's based on the amount of matter which is caught in it's gravitational pull. Quite large really.

[Bondy]

Thought i'd just contribute to this thread as its something i have alot of opinion on, especially the argument involving creationism (ugh!) vs. evolution.

But why is space black? I mean if theres nothing there then shouldn't it be like air you cant see it?

I think if im correct in saying from something i vaguely remember from school and from my science exam that there is something called a 'red shift' and it is when light is travelling away from you, the wavelength of the light is stretched and shifts towards red (in the electromagnetic spectrum), as it shifts further it may not become visible at all, therefore what do you see when you see nothing...black. Kinda the same as the doppler effect just with vision instead. The red shift is used to measure something about moving planets i think or something like that . Probably wrong but its something like that anyway!

[sarcasm]In the beginning God created heaven and earth...[/sarcasm]

why is that not possible?

I agree anything just seems to be to perfect to be an accident.

I'm not directing what im saying at anyone by the way, im just letting people know why im going to babble on about this as its a bit off topic from the last few posts!

Why is it not possible.....well why is it possible? because an age old scripture says thats what happened, which says that we have a perfect all caring, all powerful, all knowing god, yet we live in a world full of imperfections?

There is no piece of irrefutable evidence that can be used to prove that a 'god' did this, and the theory of 'intelligent design' cannot really be used as evidence as that theory was flawed from the start to begin with, i suppose what im trying to get at is that, religion for some reason does not have to prove itself to anyone, it just arrogantly assumes of itself that it is correct, yet when science begins to challenge religion or anything that contradicts a part of religion, they are then inclined to prove there theories. why is this?

A reason for why we dont know why the universe or how it really begin, is becuase i believe due to technology, we are just not yet capable of being able to study such questions yet. An example would be the evolutionary theory, Darwin would get slated by religions for his theory until we did get enough technology to fight back there arguments,such as finding out the genetic link in apes and humans.

Another thing lol, does anyone agree with this, lets say you werent born in the U.K and instead born into a god loving town in USA, now you are more than likely to be brought up to believe in chrisitanity right and the christian god, just the same as that if you were born in classical greece, you would be believing in zeus! I suppose what im trying to get at is that its just a belief system + a matter of chance as to where you are born which is likely what makes you believe what you do, surely thats simply a flaw in itself of a god.

Also just for a laugh watch this video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wECRvNRquvI (the fact im assuming quite a few americans watch this programme, the guy is arrogant, at one part where he is asked a question he uses a childish way of a avoiding the question by making a pathetic attempt at a joke, also the way he is basically saying, if you are not a theist, then every murder, or wrong doing by any other person is because they are motivated by atheism)

Also if you're interested in this stuff, richard dawkins books are a good read.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Bondy

[Boswell]

Thanks for you large contrubution^ but i don't agree with all of it. You and some other people keeping going on about there being no proof of god, The whole basis of religion is believing in God without proof it's all about believing in your religion, thats the whole point. I also think the whole is there a God argument is really stupid because there is no proof for either side so you just end up going round in cycles.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Boswell

[hI-OOPS-CAPS]

there doesnt need to be proof of god in religion as its faith.

QUOTE

But why is space black? I mean if theres nothing there then shouldn't it be like air you cant see it?

light needs to reflect off something to see it. if theres nothing in space to reflect off then theres nothing to be seen

[ilikeriding]

Thought i'd just contribute to this thread as its something i have alot of opinion on, especially the argument involving creationism (ugh!) vs. evolution.

I think if im correct in saying from something i vaguely remember from school and from my science exam that there is something called a 'red shift' and it is when light is travelling away from you, the wavelength of the light is stretched and shifts towards red (in the electromagnetic spectrum), as it shifts further it may not become visible at all, therefore what do you see when you see nothing...black. Kinda the same as the doppler effect just with vision instead. The red shift is used to measure something about moving planets i think or something like that . Probably wrong but its something like that anyway!

I'm not directing what im saying at anyone by the way, im just letting people know why im going to babble on about this as its a bit off topic from the last few posts!

Why is it not possible.....well why is it possible? because an age old scripture says thats what happened, which says that we have a perfect all caring, all powerful, all knowing god, yet we live in a world full of imperfections?

There is no piece of irrefutable evidence that can be used to prove that a 'god' did this, and the theory of 'intelligent design' cannot really be used as evidence as that theory was flawed from the start to begin with, i suppose what im trying to get at is that, religion for some reason does not have to prove itself to anyone, it just arrogantly assumes of itself that it is correct, yet when science begins to challenge religion or anything that contradicts a part of religion, they are then inclined to prove there theories. why is this?

A reason for why we dont know why the universe or how it really begin, is becuase i believe due to technology, we are just not yet capable of being able to study such questions yet. An example would be the evolutionary theory, Darwin would get slated by religions for his theory until we did get enough technology to fight back there arguments,such as finding out the genetic link in apes and humans.

Another thing lol, does anyone agree with this, lets say you werent born in the U.K and instead born into a god loving town in USA, now you are more than likely to be brought up to believe in chrisitanity right and the christian god, just the same as that if you were born in classical greece, you would be believing in zeus! I suppose what im trying to get at is that its just a belief system + a matter of chance as to where you are born which is likely what makes you believe what you do, surely thats simply a flaw in itself of a god.

Also just for a laugh watch this video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wECRvNRquvI (the fact im assuming quite a few americans watch this programme, the guy is arrogant, at one part where he is asked a question he uses a childish way of a avoiding the question by making a pathetic attempt at a joke, also the way he is basically saying, if you are not a theist, then every murder, or wrong doing by any other person is because they are motivated by atheism)

Also if you're interested in this stuff, richard dawkins books are a good read.

You took my post out of context you goon, all that bible/heaven hell/god shit is total wank which is quite obvious as the idea was created by us based on our inability to deal with the fact that we dont mean anything hence i dont believe in right and wrong ect...

anyway, I didnt mean god as in a literal term as such described in the bible. I used the word to describe what caused the beginning of the universe which could be anything, I cant get my head round this idea of something appearing out of nothing so whatever did make/ cause that something would be god..

there doesnt need to be proof of god in religion as its faith.

oh yeah and there has to be proof for someone to fully believe something, how on earth could they explain 'why' to themselves if they didnt know why they believed. I mean 'FAITH' wtf is 'FAITH' I'd say it was again an inabilty to deal with unwanted situations so its a bullshit way of comforting yourself based on pure chance that everything does turn out alright which it doesnt, thus proving god is not real in the sense of the bible .

Edited September 12, 2007 by afroman

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

The whole basis of religion is believing in God without proof it's all about believing in your religion, thats the whole point. I also think the whole is there a God argument is really stupid because there is no proof for either side so you just end up going round in cycles.

My personal view on this is that people who do believe in god, like people who go to church and believe in an allseeing being and heaven and hell etc, is that they are too stupid to think for themselves. They've been brought up with it in their lives and they just follow religeon blindly like sheep. I don't believe anyone with half a braincell can believe such a proposterous story. It's almost like devoting your life to worshipping Santa Claus, just in case he really exists.

Don't get me wrong, religeon has some good (common sense) ideals: Don't kill people (although I think the old testament does allow you to kill most people different to you), don't steal, treat people nicely (unless they're different to you) etc. But to believe anything of the stories the bible is just stupid, and if the stories are all BS then the whole concept of god, religeon and everything that goes with it is bogus.

Anyway, I think you get the point that I don't like religeon so I won't bring it up again. Promise.

Edit: 7/01/08... just read this again after the topic was bumped. Damn I was in a crappy mood when I wrote that

[Bondy]

there doesnt need to be proof of god in religion as its faith.

But surely something is true or it isnt? Why should religion be void of this?

Thanks for you large contrubution^ but i don't agree with all of it. You and some other people keeping going on about there being no proof of god, The whole basis of religion is believing in God without proof it's all about believing in your religion, thats the whole point. I also think the whole is there a God argument is really stupid because there is no proof for either side so you just end up going round in cycles.

I agree with you there it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence or god, but people have argued that instead that its just improbable that there is one whilsts other theories are probable, i also dont have a problem with people believing in a 'god' etc if it helps them in a way of comfort, hope of an afterlife etc, we all need something to take our mind off the strange world we live in, its when they feel they shouldnt be criticised by other peoples opinions that conflict theres, or feel the need to force religion upon others.

As fair for the faith, couldnt you argue thats the same as blind obedience?

You took my post out of context you goon, all that bible/heaven hell/god shit is total wank which is quite obvious as the idea was created by us based on our inability to deal with the fact that we dont mean anything hence i dont believe in right and wrong ect...

anyway, I didnt mean god as in a literal term as such described in the bible. I used the word to describe what caused the beginning of the universe which could be anything, I cant get my head round this idea of something appearing out of nothing so whatever did make/ cause that something would be god..

oh yeah and there has to be proof for someone to fully believe something, how on earth could they explain 'why' to themselves if they didnt know why they believed. I mean 'FAITH' wtf is 'FAITH' I'd say it was again an inabilty to deal with unwanted situations so its a bullshit way of comforting yourself based on pure chance that everything does turn out alright which it doesnt, thus proving god is not real in the sense of the bible .

You sir, are a 'goon', i didnt take anything you said out of context, nor was i even replying to anything you said, therefore you've taken my babble out of context! i knew you obviously didnt believe in a god hence the 'sarcasm' in your quote

>>Back to the universe discussion, with the whole universe expanding thingy...do you guys things it will end in the big crunch, or just keep on expanding until space is stupendously large, cold and emptier, or do you think something else?

Edited September 13, 2007 by Bondy

[hI-OOPS-CAPS]

there's no proof on the existence of god. although religion doesnt only revolve around god i'd pretty much have to say it was faith to believe in religion

>>Back to the universe discussion, with the whole universe expanding thingy...do you guys things it will end in the big crunch, or just keep on expanding until space is stupendously large, cold and emptier, or do you think something else?

i put my faith in hawkin and say its an empty universe, i read theres 1/10th the mass needed for the bigcrunch

[Boswell]

I genuinly get pissed off that i won't be able to see any of the universe myself. It annoys me that i am unable to leave Earth and go exploring. Sounds weird but it is a very real annoyance to me and probably goes someway to explaining my intake of mind altering substances and love of spacey music.

Bit of a late response but I also get a bit frustrated that i will be dead before we even scratch the surface, assuming we even get that far.

[Token]

I think everyone can agree that God is both Infallible (totally trustworthy) and also totally powerful. As is said in pretty much every piece of literature on every religion around the world.

I hope everyone can agree that God has the ability to create a sphere that couldn't be destroyed by anything. Because ofcourse he wouldn't lie that he's all powerful and he has the ability to create indestructible spheres.

Now if this sphere that God's created can't be destroyed by anything, then it cancels him out of being all powerful because he should be able to destroy it, but he can't because he made it indestructible. Get it so far? This sort of cocks up the whole idea that God is all powerful and supposedly has the ability to create a Universe if he doesn't have the ability to destroy something he created himself.

[Bondy]

I think everyone can agree that God is both Infallible (totally trustworthy) and also totally powerful. As is said in pretty much every piece of literature on every religion around the world.

I hope everyone can agree that God has the ability to create a sphere that couldn't be destroyed by anything. Because ofcourse he wouldn't lie that he's all powerful and he has the ability to create indestructible spheres.

Now if this sphere that God's created can't be destroyed by anything, then it cancels him out of being all powerful because he should be able to destroy it, but he can't because he made it indestructible. Get it so far? This sort of cocks up the whole idea that God is all powerful and supposedly has the ability to create a Universe if he doesn't have the ability to destroy something he created himself.

Very true indeed, one of the few paradoxes there are, such as the benevolence (all caring) paradox also, whereby as definition of god states, he is all caring, he is also omnipotent (all powerful) amongst other attributes a god apparently has, as he is all powerful he has the ability to prevent any/all hurt, pain, suffering etc in the world with ease without causing any pain, hurt etc in the process.....yet there is suffering in the world, therefore god is either not all benevolent, or not all powerful, if he isnt either of those then he is not really a god.

Although to reply to your paradox, some argue that the question itself is contradictory, by saying that something which is indestructible cant be destroyed in the first place, therefore the question is not valid.

It is also argued that god exists different to the way we do (such as outside our universe) , whereby he is governed under his own laws and therefore can perform such actions that we in our own space and time governed under our set laws of physics would find incomprehensible.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Bondy

[Boswell]

I'm even most confused than i was before i created this topic.

[Tomm]

I think everyone can agree that God is both Infallible (totally trustworthy) and also totally powerful. As is said in pretty much every piece of literature on every religion around the world.

I hope everyone can agree that God has the ability to create a sphere that couldn't be destroyed by anything. Because ofcourse he wouldn't lie that he's all powerful and he has the ability to create indestructible spheres.

Now if this sphere that God's created can't be destroyed by anything, then it cancels him out of being all powerful because he should be able to destroy it, but he can't because he made it indestructible. Get it so far? This sort of cocks up the whole idea that God is all powerful and supposedly has the ability to create a Universe if he doesn't have the ability to destroy something he created himself.

A shorter way of saying that would be:

Can Jesus make a rock which is too heavy for himself to carry?

[Boswell]

I'v just had a though, we should be happy we are the only living things on earth (and the universe as far as we no) that have even been able to start to understand the universe.

[hI-OOPS-CAPS]

i was in the hospital today surround by old people and i though when these were young they were tought the universe is static if they were educated enough, if not they probably still thought the earth was flat

[1a2bcio8]

You see stuff because light interacts with the object, as there is physically nothing in majority of space you just see a void of darkness. One question though why is that void black?

Because the blackness is what your nervous system produces to represent an event that contains no light, outside of your head. In the absence of anything else, your mind gives you the blackness. The blackness doesn't exist outside of your head, something else, or people might say "nothingness" does. When events occur that contain light, you get the production of colour in your mind. Again, the colour doesn't exist outside of your head, that's just the way your are representing external events that hit and stimulate your eye and nervous system.

[1a2bcio8]

A shorter way of saying that would be:

Can Jesus make a rock which is too heavy for himself to carry?

Can humans create linguistical structures that are paradoxical and bear no relation to reality even though they seemingly make sense?

I think so!

The cretin says, "all cretins are liars".

I have a round square. If I can say it then surely god can make it otherwise he doesn't exist?

Then again, perhaps those linguistic impossibilities have already been applied to the structures of the bible...

I need to go to sleep.

[Concussion]

I need to go to sleep.

So do I after reading that blackness post. Isn't that like if a tree falls down in a forest with know one about does it make a sound with know one to hear it / interpret the sound waves? H`mmm probably not, I'm tired!

[1a2bcio8]

Exactly! An event probably occurs when nobody is around, but the event as we know it, does not. We only know interpretations of events outside of our heads, affecting our senses and nervous system and causing that end product we call mind. Of course this assumes there are events outside of our heads and not just minds. But basically we know the world through a process of two events interacting. That's also what relativity is. The different position in which two people watch a football travel through the air goes a long way to defining their experience. There is no definite way of experiencing the football, just a relative interpretation based on space-time conditions.

Edited January 5, 2008 by rowly

[Concussion]

What would there be if no living thing was around to interpret anything... me go sleepy now!

[Muel]

Of course it makes a noise! The deaf rabbit will tell you. It deafened him.

I didn't hear myself farting in bed last night, but I knew I had been when I woke up this morning!!

[Boswell]

Wow! Never thought i'd see this one again.

[Boswell]

If the Universe is expanding which most scientists think is the case what is it expanding into? WTF! Non Universe matter! Arrrrrrrrrrr I think im going to go mad!

Edited January 9, 2008 by Boswell

[Shaun H]

If the Universe is expanding which most scientists think is the case what is it expanding into? WTF! Non Universe matter! Arrrrrrrrrrr I think im going to go mad!

There's 3 possibilities I will explain in short, you can look into them further if you wish.

1. The Universe has so much matter that it's expansion slows until it starts collapsing, ultimately resulting in a "big crunch".

2. The Universe has the perfect amount of matter, it's expansion slows until it finally stops and stays like that for the rest of time.

3. The Universe has so little matter that it continues to expand for the rest of time.

Like I said there's more to it, so look it up on google/wikipedia or something.

[hI-OOPS-CAPS]

Like I said there's more to it, so look it up on google/wikipedia or something.

not really much more to it. the current prediction shows the future as going into a state that expands forever.the rate of expansion is even increasing

Edited January 9, 2008 by moctezuma