I post on here to get more imformation ok i may have been a little dum not searching i have been on tarty bikes plenty of times and had a look at the pads but i figured if i post on here i could see what some other riders use perhaps give me some tips? i see you have told me what to get where from, but you see i don't see why you have to put it like that "If your gonna pussy foot over grinding you rim then do this, DON@T RIDE TRIALS. You need the grind which is a high friction coating. Your grind should be gut wrenching and all the way in, 1mm to 2mm is all it is and rim's now as such the Echo are made thicker to keep people as your self happy. Just make sure you grind your rim right, run enough PSI in you tyre cos if not then it'll be too low and will crack as the rim will be what your rididng on and the thinner and thiner side walls will cave in, crack, snap. SEARCH is a frendly button as is GOOGLE" you seem to be telling me what to do? that don't ride trials remark kind of harsh don't you think? i don't see anyone other than you that has a problem with the way i posted this but still i apologize for being a dick? ok?! I know he knows what hes talking about but whats with the attitude i understand where he is coming from but why say it like that. thanks for your help seems to be plazmatics are the choice at the moment.