Yeah, Clive Leeson told me that if you buy 1000 or so frames from Taiwan etc you can get them for ~£25 each, thats painted and everything. So companies that do half price replacement etc still make money when someone breaks a frame! On the other hand he said that each Leeson frame has abour £70 of tubing, then he has to get it sprayed properly, and the logos, and all the time is takes to hand weld each one to an individuals prefered geometry... Gareth