really??? fancy swapping for abit to see the difference???? mines a saracen mad stem (so its the same design and geo as the onza, pazzaz and echo stem) the geometry of the stem is 120 x 20 i think... sure does feel nice but i think its holding me back as far as taps and gaps are concerned, just doesnt feel as low as other bikes ive bin on (when i used an onza 110 x 10 it gapped and tapped really well but messed my stance up on the bike)... but when its on the back wheel it feels nicer with a longer stem (if that makes sense to you???)... i know you ride a zenith too... whats your bar and stem set up? i really wanna experiment abit more because i have always used a high stem set up on my bikes and would really like to try a shorter one in response to kris and ash ... i really want white rims i think i will strip the frame and have white rims... but white frame is just copying prawny baby... i like to be abit more original... you know it looks sexual how it is though oh and kris... you just wanna get abit handy with the old nitromorse you frame pervert