agreed. definately a completely different animal compared to the mainstream echo/zoo/adamant etc... should really try out some natty on it! don't know as yet i may sell it, may keep it as spares.. dude that is nice, i love the look of frames when they ain't built up! wish i taken a few pics before i built it up now.. fair play on the cranks mate, i guess its the same as me with preferences like tyres/pedals geo is 1070, 72, 380, +35. wheelbase and chain stay obviously varies due to chain tension and horizontal dropout! steve