andyroo

No, I really do think it was closer to a million.

Booo, Ssssss!

Tomm - If chimps are like chimps now, what do you reckon they were they like when we were more like chimps? (IF we were)

I would not eat human flesh through scientific proof that canibalism in any species causes problems... same as nailing your own sister Interesting; if chimps have been around longer than humans (apparantly) then you would think they either would be super-intelligent, or would've died out and been replaced by us... hmm So the reason for eating plants is: 'Well, I gotta eat something!'

I mean that, yes, from a cold, number-crunching perspective, a person with downs syndrom is obviously less 'human' than a fully able person, but morally, no; they are just as equal and should be treated with as much respect as their fellow man. What I was getting at was: Where is the boundary before something is no longer considered 'alive enough' and can therefore be killed without moral objection? Just being alive is not a good enough divide; plants are alive and it is difficult to feel morally wrong about snapping a twig. Adaptation and learning? Plants adapt and learn and evolve over time, so again, not good enough. The pain thing has been discussed, pain is simply a subconcious mechanism, utilised by all living things. (To be honest, pain is one of the last things that would be used to differentiate intelligent life from non intelligent; bacterium react to harmful situations, a reaction that would be triggered by stimuli; that stimuli being whta we call 'pain'.) This boundary is one of great debate; a very common topic is that of abortion. Is killing a foetus murder? Like the plant, it displays a variety of properties that, on paper, would be indiscernable from a fully grown adult, yet a moral decision has been generally made, again like with plants, that a foetus is not 'alive' enough for it to be taken in the same vain as a fully grown adult.

Not gonna give anything away but: The last episode! Answers one question, asks about a million! Roll on season 2!!! The series isn't a patch on Sean Bean in Sharpe though :$

You never did say why you don't eat meat? At the core of it, pain is a chemical reaction, a natural instinct to protect our body. For example, if you put your hand on something hot, you will struggle not to involuntarily pull it away. And if you try and hold your breath to kill yourself, your body will knock you unconcious, almost set itself to 'autopilot'. What we experience as pain is little more than the same chemical reaction that causes a plant to react to its surroundings; but, humans having significantly greater adaptation and the ability to learn, and can go on to asscociate other reations alongside the rudimentary reactions i.e: anger often resides alongside pain, a new chemical reation tagged to memories that can be asociated with the casue of the pain. What humans also describe as 'emotional pain' is somewhat different to conventional pain. It does not trigger any subliminal defence mechanisms and is therefore not pain as we describe it here. In the same vein, feelings of love, hatred etc are not on the same level as pain. Pain is very basic, love very complex. We can inderstand why our bodies experience pain; to protect itself, but we cannot understand why we feel love or hate. Being that pain is such a basic and rudimentary experience, there is every reason why a plant should also use it as a sensor to its surroundings. What we are veering onto here becomes more of a moral issue than a scientific issue; at what point does something alive become more than alive? When does it become something that a veggie wont eat? What is that boundary? If a plant is as alive as an animal, yet due to a plants lesser conscious is treated with less dignity than an animal, how far does this perception stretch? Is someone with downs syndrome less of a human? Technically yes; morally no. So morally, a vegetarian should not eat vegeatables either.

On your point B, an animal being slaughtered for meat does remember (or even experience) any pain involved with its demise. So why should the eating of it be shrouded with guilt? And with C, the whole point of pain is so that we know that it is 'bad'; if pain felt good we wouldn't try to stop it happening. It is a trigger mechanism to prevent injury. Plants have similar reactive defenses, triggered by a desire to survive. In an example that we can relate to most, one particular plant will curl up into a ball if you touch it. This reaction occurs to prevent damage. The communication from the tip of the leaf to the mechanism that in turn curls the leaf up would, by definition, be called 'pain'. - Zoo; are you 12?

Here's a lunchtime attempt from me:

Thats what I tried to differentiate in my post above; vegetarians that are decent people I probably wouldnt know are vegetarians (they have no reason to tell me), but the ones that harp on about it are the ones that give over the impression that quite a few people have of them. Do you not eat meat because you don't like it? Or do you feel guilty? What I'm getting at about plants feeling pain is that pain is just a form of communication from your body to make you react quickly, there is no reason that plants do not experience a similar type of reaction. Just becasue we can't relate to it doesn't mean it isn't there! And even if plants don't feel pain; neither do animals when they are killed under EU law, and both plant and animal were once living, so in principle killing either is one and the same? And I don't have a problem with either! How can you say plants don't feel pain? Can't you hear them screaming?

Please re-read my post re: pain. You obviously didn't read it properly, otherwise you would have answered your own question. I dont feel empathy more for one species than I do another, IF I have no personal connection with them. As bad as it sounds (and this will be true for most), I would feel more sadness at my own hamster dying than I would for a whole heap of humans that I'd never met. Thats empathy for personal reasons, not empathy in principle, which is the impression that vegetarians give me when lecturing the wrongs of eating meat. The reason that I find most vegetarians that I come across to be so frustrating is their inexplicable urge to justify their decision and to morally raise themselves above me with an air of, 'I'm saving the world, you're killing it, you must be Satan's human incarnation.' I have many beliefs myself, but I choose not to make tutting noises and make disgusted faces at those who chose to do otherwise. I fully agree that this reflection does not represent the majority of vegetarians; in fact it is probably a minor selection of the group. Most veggies that are veggies for their own reasons and not to preach their morality to others I probably wouldn't even know about. The just behave like a mature individual with individual beliefs without the need to tread on my face about my own justifications. Rebelistic; you think life in the wild compared to life under organic EU law is better? Most farm animals (pigs, cows, sheep, chickens) do not have the capability to survive on their own in the wild in this country! Anyway, what wild? I'd like to see this 'wild' you refer to, becasue I'm sure I could make a mint rearing sheep on it! Truely wild animals are always, starving, close to death, and in constant danger, with no consistent food or water source. Its like comparing homelessness to posh country living. - And to those that say 'I can't believe this thread is still going - drop it,' as posted in another chit-chat thread, it can be so obvious who are the younger members of the forum! Older members will quite happily 'chit-chat' and have a debate without resorting to insults, after all, this is a chit chat thread, whereas younger members seem to think they have the power and respect to be able to suggest that their post should be the be all and end all of a conversation topic! If the thread is too boring and adult for you, and you feel you cannot be mature enough to post in a relevant and consistant manner, please dont feel forced to enter it!

Sorry, lets go back to the difference between killing animals and killing plants... Whats the difference? Both are living organisms, both go through the same molecular decomposition. Ah, I've got it. People choose not to eat meat through guilt or pomposity, not morals. An animal is easy to relate to when it dies because it is similar to a human. A plant, despite being genetically almost identical to an animal, does not provoke basic human emotions because humans cannot relate to it. This is easily demonstated with several types of animal. I know plenty of people who would hate you for killing a 'cute puppy' because it was vicious, but would determindly kill a frog, or a spider at first sight, unprovoked. The link? Humans can relate to cute puppies but not slimey frogs or creepy spiders. Animals do not suffer when being killed for food, in fact the lives they lead are far more wholesome and satisfying (through EU law) than they would be living in the wild. No vegetarian has any qualms about killing plant life; how are they to know a plant doesn't experience pain? What is pain? It is your bodies comunication to the brain to inform of injury. A plant will have similar mechanisms, some plants can even recoil or release a sting to deter predators. These reactions would be caused by a similar construct as 'pain'. Lastly, next time some hot-headed vegetarian is preaching how killing cows is wrong (with his mouth that has teeth in it designed for tearing through meat) ask him why his shoes are made of leather.

Right - Your on her list too now! To Do: Item 1: Destroy Shambo's Killers Item 2: Destroy dave85 P.S: You smell!

Were all doomed; a four armed, elephant-headed woman is coming to get us now

I can see what your saying Snappel, but I think the problem lies with the lower limit of the import tax... rather than being as low as £36 for a gift, it should be more like £100, not so much that you could make a business of importing items and undercutting larger sellers, but enough for someone to buy something or recieve a gift without the governement springing up from nowhere like a kid that won't leave you alone saying, "Can I have some?"