Cheers rich. That actually made sence. My problem is the hub is a quando and has no model on it. I know my rim is tryall, but again dont know the model as it came with the bike. Im going to start it again tonight as i think it is, as you said, a simple solution. I was just rushing it last night. Oh and rich are you coming out next week? Also What is the most common spoke pattern on a mod? cheers guys max Edit: This is the rim here Tarty